Lithium-ion Battery

Malk · Post by **Malk** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:27 pm

Has anyone fitted a Lithium-Ion battery yet?
Just had a nice chat with a bloke in The Engineering Show at Autosport and have some major advantages:
A lot lighter
A lot smaller
2% discharge over 3 months don't use the car so no need for trickle charger
More Powerful than lead-acid

I'm on the hunt for a sensibly priced one now!

M.

Post by **Heuer** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:50 pm

I use one of these: http://www.dmsshop.co.uk/sbs-40-12v-38ah-35-p.asp

Not Lithium-ion but it has lasted 14 years and is half the weight of a conventional battery. Used in aircraft and race cars so proven technology. Every year I keep thinking I will have to buy another but every year it continues to work at 100%. You will find Lithium-Ion batteries being used in motorcycles, jet-skis, quads etc and, recently, race cars but one big enough for an E-Type will cost you close to ?1,000

e.g. http://tinyurl.com/b46uenr

Malk · Post by **Malk** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:30 pm

Chap at show wanted ?500, I have a contact who should be able to improve but will look at your option too thanks, M.

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:18 pm

Be very,very careful . Lithium Ion batteries are just about alright in low current applications such as mobile phones and laptops - although even then there have been fires (two of which resulted in the fatal destruction of cargo Boeing 747s - UPS 3.9.2010 and Asiana 28.7.2011 ) - but in high current applications they have to be very carefully handled indeed particularly in relation to charging . Failure to deal with them correctly can lead to fires which are virtually impossible to extinguish . The most publicised instances of this have been the Boeing 787 protpotype about 18 months ago , which had to make an emergency landing, and the Japan Air Lines ground fire on a 787 last week .Unless there was some overriding need for lightness I would not touch one in automotive applications

Post by **Heuer** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:47 pm

Malk wrote:Chap at show wanted ?500, I have a contact who should be able to improve but will look at your option too thanks, M.

Really depends on how much cranking voltage you need - the smaller ?500 Li-on battery is equivalent to a 14-20 Ah lead acid but I reckon you need at least 38Ah for a road going E-Type so you could get away with the ?750 35Ah one I suppose. You would have to make sure your car has been fitted with one of the new high torque starter motors though because you are not going to get that many chances at turning the car over!

If these Li-on batteries are anything like the ones in my laptop then you will be lucky to get them to last two years; ditto my mobile phone.

Malk · Post by **Malk** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:42 pm

Was more worried about discharge to save plugging the trickle charger in than weight. May give your reommendation a bash. Saying that not seen it in 8 weeks as Rev counter only just come back with no fault found which isn't encouraging so must be sender unit!

Malk · Post by **Malk** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:57 am

David,

The spec you sent me a link to is same spec as used in an F1 starter pack! I should be able to source these and will advise on cost for other members if interested..............

M.

Post by **Heuer** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:19 pm

Err - (as Christopher already mentioned) have you read the troubles this week with the 787 Dreamliners catching fire because of their Li-on batteries? Now subject to a FAA investigation and even Boeing are having a re-think on their use. Could mean there are a lot of Li-on batteries going cheap! Maybe that is why they are used in F1 starter packs and not carried in the cars?

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:52 pm

David ,the reason I mentioned it ( and particularly the 787 fires) was that one witness compared the batteries to thermite in that as fast as you used an extinguisher on them , they burst back into flames as soon as the extinguisher was exhausted . Apparently even a steel box will not contain them as the combustion temperatures exceed 1000 degs C by a considerable margin, almost instantaneously. The thought of that on an E , near your legs or those of your passenger, is very worrying .

rah59 · Post by **rah59** » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:51 am

Most electric cars on the market use Li-on, perhaps Nissan etc have got it wrong! Yes i know main stream manufacturers dont fit them to standard ranges but thats for economic reasons, why fit an li-on when a conventional lead acid can be fitted for 20% pf the cost. With regard aircraft, the enviromental conditions to which batteries are exposed are extreme and changes can be rapid(-40 +50) these extremes are unlikely to be encountered by e types, that said i would wait until this technology is more readily available

Post by **Heuer** » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:13 pm

I think the main concern is that electric cars are designed to use Lithium-ion batteries and include software algorithms to monitor charge rates (which are not linear), capacity and avoid draining the charge completely. The E-Type has no such protection in place so the likelihood of breaching the batteries operational parameters is quite high and a fire could be the result. If you want to use a li-on battery then you need to invest in a sophisticated control unit between the alternator, battery and car.

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:06 am

Heuer wrote:I use one of these: http://www.dmsshop.co.uk/sbs-40-12v-38ah-35-p.asp

That advert doesn't fill me with confidence David. According to their spec, the battery is about four feet long. Can't see your lovely missus being happy to share her legroom with one of those all round France every summer?

Pete

Malk · Post by **Malk** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:31 am

Thats comforting to know as I've got a Citroen CZero being delivered today!!!!

Didnt think that DMS battery was Li-Ion anyway? Will go down that route when I get car back, meanwhile I'll enjoy not visiting petrol stations in-between 13mpg in the ET!

Post by **Heuer** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:50 am

Pete

Only resident in the US for a few months and you have forgot all about metric measurements? :D Size of the SBS battery is Size (mm not ins!) (L)1250x (W)97 x (H)206 so about half the height of the standard battery. The SBS40 is a lead/acid battery and designed to provide short term high rates of discharge (aka starting a car).

Installation is fairly simple although you will need M6 cable terminals rather than the standard taper posts. Demon Tweaks and Ready2Race sell ready made cables with these terminals which makes life simple. Because the SBS40 is sealed for life it can operate on its side keeping the centre of gravity as low as possible. To keep the battery in top condition I leave it connected to a CTEK Multi XS7000 when the car is not in use (over winter).

SBS stickers removed and 'Lucas' attached to cause confusion!

If you do not want to go to this extreme Enersys make a conventionally shaped battery, using their advanced technology, specifically adapted for the E-Type, the Odyssey PC1200LT:

This one would be better if you are running a dynamo - oh, and it is eight feet long Pete in American

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:12 pm

David : back to school ! 1250mm is about 4 feet 1 inch , so either Peter is right, or there is an error in their advertisement

Post by **Heuer** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:38 pm

Should read 250mm. Sorry Pete I will throw myself off the top of an SBS40 battery!

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:26 pm

christopher storey wrote:David : back to school ! 1250mm is about 4 feet 1 inch , so either Peter is right, or there is an error in their advertisement

Not either or, both.

Not that I am fault-free when it comes to typos on hobby stuff. If they occurred in professional work I'd follow David jumping off that battery. 'Follow' being the operative word, to ensure a soft landing...

No worries of personal injury David - I'll be aiming for your well-padded wallet :-)

Post by **Heuer** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:54 pm

For the avoidance of doubt:
"Li-Ion batteries use an organic liquid solvent as the electrolyte. This electrolyte is responsible for the ion exchange between the electrodes (anode and cathode) just like any type of battery. This organic solvent based electrolyte is highly flammable and the reason why Li-Ion batteries are more volatile and can catch fire or explode if mistreated. Li-Ion batteries are usually encased in a hard metal can (again like a more conventional battery) adding weight and not allowing many different options as far as shape and size.

? Do Not - Expose the battery to excessive heat or cold (i.e. outside the range of 10-35 degrees Centigrade ambient).
? Do Not - Store the battery in a fully charged state (store batteries with about 50% charge).
? Do Not - Allow a nearly flat battery to be unused for more than a month or so. The battery will slowly discharge until it becomes fully discharged and this will permanently damage the battery cells.

Remember: Your battery is slowly degrading all the time, even if it is not used. Keeping your battery as cool as possible will slow down this degradation considerably.

Essential Li-On Information
Lithium-Ion batteries have a finite life, they slowly degrade from the day they are first made. The life of the battery will depend upon how you charge and discharge the battery and the temperature at which the battery is kept. A manufacturer will rate a Li-on battery to the point where it holds 50% of its original capacity. At this point you should consider replacing the battery. Another safety issue is cold temperature charging. Consumer grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0?C (32?F). Although the packs appear to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium occurs on the anode while on a sub-freezing charge. The plating is permanent and cannot be removed. If done repeatedly, such damage can compromise the safety of the pack. The battery will become more vulnerable to failure if subjected to impact, crush or high rate charging. The lifetime of lithium batteries is reduced fairly significantly if they are kept fully charged at all times. Lithium batteries are dangerous and you should NOT design them into a product unless you are an experienced battery professional.

Under ideal conditions, after just 1 year, a Lithium-Ion battery will probably hold about 80% of the original capacity of a new battery. Even if you keep your battery as cool as possible, it can only be expected to last for 2-3 years at the very most. If a battery is often kept warm/hot, it may only hold around 50%-60% of its original charge after 1 year. The biggest enemy of the Lithium-Ion battery is heat. It should also be noted that Lithium-Ion batteries tend to 'die' rather suddenly when they have reached the end of their life unlike lead/acid which will slowly degrade when they are nearing the end of their useful life. "

And here is one someone prepared earlier. Scary!:

Note: Lithium-polymer (Lipo) uses the same chemistry as a Li-on battery - they are used in radio control planes where this video comes from

Malk · Post by **Malk** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:23 am

David - I plumped for same as you in the end but not from dms as they are not uk manufactured any more as your red top would have been!!

I've got a Powervamp one, 37Ah and 1150 cranking Amps. 12.5kg PVR-Battery-PVR40 is product code. They are used in F1 starters and all UK manufactured not China!

I'm not good with pics especially off a Blackberry but this link should work in some form!

http://s970.photobucket.com/albums/ae18 ... LmpwZw.jpg

M.

Post by **Heuer** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:39 am

Malc

You were almost there. You just need to click on the 'IMG Code' box next to your picture and it will copy and then paste it here. Voil?

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