Exhaust question

Technical advice Q&A
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utz
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#1 Exhaust question

Post by utz » Tue May 07, 2013 6:41 am

Hi there,

I'm searching for the optimum exhaust for good over all power. Engine is
4.2 ltr., 9:1, XJ6 S3 Head with Multi Angle Valve job and some porting, S3 cams, Weber 45 DCOE, Mallory distributor.

So - original cast-iron, short primary pipes or long like the patriot header? 2 "secondary pipes? I would be happy to hear from your experience.

best Regards from Krautland

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#2

Post by christopher storey » Tue May 07, 2013 9:50 am

For a good flat torque curve the standard manifolds cannot be beaten . All the mutiple pipe systems cause a loss of torque right where you want it, in the 2500 rpm vicinity . If you put a new system on, you will have to start again to calibrate your DCOEs as well ; particularly, finding a suitable emulsion tube may be difficult

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#3

Post by Heuer » Tue May 07, 2013 9:55 am

Have a read through this thread and you will learn just about everything you need to know: http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=287

Based on this my advice for fast road use is cast manifolds, 1.75" secondaries and 'straight through' silencers as this gives the best balance of power and comfort. However those Weber carbs do not bring anything to the party other than increased fuel consumption and the constant smell of petrol. They are great on a track car as they increase bhp at maximum revs at the expense of low down torque, the opposite of what you need on the road. If this does not concern you then I suggest 2" tubular manifolds and matching straight through silencers but make sure you get a system with in-silencer venturis to soften the torque dip at low revs. You could also consider FIA approved 2.1" ceramic coated tubular manifolds from Eccosse Motor Sport which help reduce noise and heat: http://www.ecossemotorsport.com/gallery.php?lang=DE Ask for Ian Stewart and mention the Forum :wink: The site is available in German as well.

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#4

Post by PeterCrespin » Tue May 07, 2013 12:56 pm

This is a complex issue and there are no hard and fast answers except to say that what the factory fitted is a very good compromise, with scope for modest power gains without changing carb or exhaust types.

It is perfectly possible, however, to fit both Webers and multibranched exhausts and not have dire consequences. The devil is in the detail. Yes, slapping on 'bigger is better' carbs or pipes straight out of the box can certainly ruin a power band, especially for street use. Nevertheless, by doing some calculations beforehand and exhaustive ('scuse pun) setting up afterwards, the best setup for the intended use can be arrived at, depending on the desired outright performance, power band, driveability and economy.

It is inherently better to have one choke per cylinder and one exhaust pipe per cylinder for a certain distance, before 'tuning' the diameters and lengths of each to get whatever performance characteristics one requires. That's why modern engines almost invariably have separate inlet runners, whether they be little commuter vehicles or full-on performance cars.

There's no magic recipe either for or against Utz's suggestions and whereas someone with a standard engine would be very well advised to keep it that way, with the mods Utz has already done I'd say a set of narrowish bore long primary headers into decent collectors and absorption silencers would give him a strong engine with plenty of tractability in excess of standard if he keeps the Weber choke sizes at the lower end. Wider headers with bigger chokes will make it fussy around town but fly on the track. Both conditions assume ignition and fuelling are optimised on a rolling road or by extensive development testing. a standard engine in good condition is an excellent compromise but he's past that point already.

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utz
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#5

Post by utz » Wed May 08, 2013 6:13 am

Thanks for the comments

The Weber Carburetor sure have disadvantages
but they were the best compromise to the original Su 2 U.S. carburetors on the S2.


As I understand you, the exhaust alone does not improve power in my konfig.
So I will drive the series Ausuff.

What still interested me:

what camshaft (fast road cam) would you recommend?

what duration;lift is the best for stable idle vs. more horses

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#6

Post by christopher storey » Wed May 08, 2013 7:34 am

I have said it so many times, but I will still say it again ! There was a reason why Jaguar stuck essentially to the same cam timing for road cars throughout the whole life of the XK engine in all its guises ( and sizes ) , except that at the very end it was advanced ( on all lobes ) by 4 degrees for emission control purposes, and it has to be presumed that the reason was that it was the best compromise for road use. 57-15-15-57 was used always, and if you depart from this you will pay for it in other ways - loss of low speed torque, poor mid range torque, bad idle, poor fuel consumption .

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#7

Post by Barry » Sun May 26, 2013 6:40 am

I have read all the useful pages on this topic, and am about to buy a system. My car will have a big valve head with fast road cams, probably Bob Beere. Standard SU carbs. I will keep the standard manifolds for good reasons already posted. Also, they look original, and I like that! So, who does the best system? ClassicFabs, Ecosse, or anyone else? I notice Dave has gone through a few, and each one was brilliant to start with, then he went elsewhere. Classiccars is recommended by both sets of people about to do the work on my car. Thanks guys.

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#8

Post by Barry » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:00 pm

David,
I think I am getting there now! Magajolt arriving later in the month or early July. Cylinder head work being done by Rob Beere, plus his latest RBCSU cams which have been designed to work with SU's. They have a bit more lift, but no more duration than his fast road cam. Then I was trying to sort out a choice of exhaust! What a mine filed!

Anyway, this is where I am at, and would welcome comment. The most informative guy was Ian Stewart at Ecosse. He is talking about either the standard cast manifolds, although prefers his own 3 into one as per his website but in 1 7/8" not the larger size. They would be creamic coated to overcome the heat problem, then his 2" system from there back including the in silencer venturi. He is experimanting with oval pipes, and may have them ready for when I need the systam in the autumn. The whole system is ?1350, which I think is not bad. Have you any experience with his own cast manifolds as opposed to tubular?

Best
Barry

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#9

Post by Heuer » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:21 pm

I have been dealing with Ian for a few years and he is a great bloke. No experience of his cast manifolds and I am currently using the stock ones to good effect. They do not affect power, indeed they enhance it, and they absorb noise. I found the 2" secondaries to be a pain because of the reduced ground clearance and I was invariably grounding when laden with luggage on speed bumps and undulating roads. His oval pipes under the diff would be essential - even Jaguar had them with their stock pipes. Based on my experience I would not go bigger than 1 7/8" because of the ground clearance alone. If you decide to fit lower profile tyres than 185's it will make the situation significantly worse. All the power gains from altering the exhaust come from free flowing straight through silencers and resonators so unless you are going racing (where ground clearance is not an issue) stick to stock sizes. Pointless having a phenomenally powerful car and having to constantly back off because of bumps in the road!
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#10

Post by Barry » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:11 am

Thanks David, I think I will talk to Gough's as well. I have ordered 185 XVS to go with triple laced 5 1/2" MWS wires. Unless I am wrong, this is the max width before you have to remove the bump stops? Also, I like the look for the standard manifold, and if it gives better performance, then all well and good. Not so sure about 2" pipes out back! just a cosmetic thing; I like the upgrades, but with minimal appearance changes. One question though, if I go for straight through silencers, what about noise; the wife would moan like hell if it was too noisy on a trip through France!!!!! I would like to achieve a nice deep sound at tick over, and maybe throaty at the top end, but in touring mode, wife friendly!!!! If yours tick those boxes, then maybe Gough are the right people.....Can I have one like David Jones'!!!!!!!

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#11

Post by Heuer » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:32 am

Barry

The straight through silencers (the resonators were straight through as standard) sound glorious on full throttle but quieten down significantly when cruising. In fact we did a 200 mile round trip last week and my wife commented on how much more civilised the car was compared to the 2" system I was using previously. That, coupled with the cast manifolds and ITG Maxogen filter, have produced a good balance of power and sound. Put your foot down and the car rockets away with a real growl. If you are worried about the enamel getting shabby on the manifolds you could try these people: http://camcoat.com/main/site/ You need the Ceramic base coat plus Turbo X Black coat on the manifolds (~ ?120).
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#12

Post by Barry » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:43 am

The plot thickens, so to speak......I have been talking to Jimmy Stewart of Classicfabs, as well as Ulryk of E typeFABS on the question of exhausts and there definately seems to be a view that suggests there is no torque drop with 1.75 tubular manifolds with 28" primaries. I have seen the rolling road graphs which would confer with that. David also has practical experience that would suggest the contrary, having gone down various routes, but similarly others testify that there is a monumental improvement across the board with a full system. So who is right? Also through much development, Ulryk and Jimmy confirm that primaries should be 1.75", and secondaries 2" and using venturis to get the best combination of torque, power and sound. This is definately a black art!!

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#13

Post by Heuer » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:00 am

My original Tony Laws manifolds were 2.25" hence the torque dip which was alleviated with the use of venturi's in a ClassicFabs system. So Uryk and Jimmy are correct in what they are saying. What I was saying is that the tubular manifolds give no discernible improvement over the cast ones but they do cause increased noise and get hot enough to bubble the paint on the frames. A better solution is to use ClassicFabs or Eccosse Motorsport 2" secondaries from the cast manifolds onwards. If you are interested I have a complete ClassicFabs system with venturi's, tubular manifolds, cast manifold secondaries option and hangers in good condition under my bench. I was about to put the whole system on eBay but I am happy to sell it to you if you want to make an offer. :wink:

If I was going to refit it I would get it treated Camcoat ceramic coating: www.camcoat.com to improve performance.

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#14

Post by Barry » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:32 pm

Thanks David. Interesting offer, because if I don't like the full manifold, I can then go back to standard with what you are offering. How many miles had the system done before you took it off. Also, I think yours is a Series 1, so I wouldn't need the rear resonators.

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#15

Post by Heuer » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:40 pm

Oh yes you would because it will look like this:
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Remove the stainless steel panel and fit an oblong number plate with S1 tail pipes. Makes the S2 look stunning from the rear. To finish the job fit Lotus Elan S4 tail lights which have the reversing light built in:
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It is what Jaguar should have done!

My system has done about 9,000 miles but none the worse for that - it is just run in.
Last edited by Heuer on Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#16

Post by Barry » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:49 pm

Umm, another mod I need to look at, but one thing at a time. OK, how about ?350 for the lot?

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#17

Post by Heuer » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:44 pm

OK cash and you will have to collect - too much metal to pack!
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#18

Post by Barry » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:10 pm

It's deal. Can you hang onto it please for the time being until I get the opportunity to come up to Nottingham? As you say, I need to get the coating arranged.

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#19

Post by Heuer » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:57 pm

Barry

Not a problem, they are safe under my workbench. Angus is modifying the S2 he is currently restoring to use the S1 tailpipes http://mossjaguar.com/in-the-workshop.html . The blue OTS above was modified by Pete Crespin. Such a simple but aesthetically perfect job.

There is a thread on Camcoat here: http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4538
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#20

Post by Dave K » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:30 pm

Heuer wrote:OK cash and you will have to collect - too much metal to pack!
Bargain of the year I reckon 8)

Dave

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