3.8 in-tank fuel pump.

[MarekH]

I think what might be happening here is that the wrong type of rubber hose is being fitted. If you look at the current discussion about ethanol free petrol, it strikes me that rubber hose marked safe for use with these formulations of petrol may not always work as part of a submersible pump setup. This is because the hose is often made of two parts:- an inner sheaf which is ethanol friendly followed by a rubber exterior applied in layers and often with an interweaved cotton reinforcement. Such a hose will work fine outside the tank, but if it is inside, the exterior layer will delaminate and block the pump with rubber debris. If this what has happened, then I'd class that as a manufacturing defect - the wrong material has been used in the construction.

kind regards
Marek

[JulianBarratt]

Hi All,
Just to say that i am aware of this thread. As you all may know, there have been a number of changes in the fuel systems in recent years to ensure that parts are able to work with newer fuels such as E10 (across the classic car sector). Parts that we sell now are compatible and have been for a few years. Exactly when this became the case, i am unsure so i will check this on Monday and come back to this thread according.
We are currently working on a remote fuel pump kit for the 3.8 cars to offer as an alternative to the in tank pumps. Generally the current pump has been reliable over the years but its a challenge to ensure that they remain so given the position of the pump inside the tank.

Best

[trondvo]

Yes, all the rubber items were below par, even the shield they used on the cabling was falling apart. The electric line itself was ok though.

No liner in the pressure hose, why not use nylon pipe or even "plumbing"?

I decided to get my car back in duty and modified the SNG item to become a pickup pipe. I installed an inline LP pump on a rubber pad that secures to the original fuel pipe tabs on the chassis. There is another LP pump on the market with even smaller diameter and I may get that one. No changes to chassis and the spare tire do not complain.

Started like a breeze with the Filter King at 3 psi.

Modified the SNG piece

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Pump coming together

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Hard rubber pad to mount the pump

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[trondvo]

Pump strapped onto the hard rubber pad.

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Installed, no problems with spare or boot board.

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Still room for improvements.

What if someone made a "sunk" cover? With a cover that is sunk there is room for a fuel pump on top of it. The metal piece itself will be a little more expensive, could put a Facet on top of it w a soundpad!

[trondvo]

Thanks to Julian for getting back, the remote pump is great news.

Why not consider a recessed/sunk cover w room for a small Facet or similar on top please. The metal/stamping will be more expensive but what a relief and a breeze to swap pump.

[Series1 Stu]

Way back, the 3.8 fuel pump was not available and, at the time, was considered to be incapable of delivering sufficient fuel at the upper end of revs, even when it's at its best. At the time there was no alternative available.

I converted mine to the 4.2 pickup, pipes and pump and designed a housing that put the pump in the same position as the 4.2 but kept the appearance of the 3.8 arrangement. The pump can be removed easily for servicing, if required.

It seems to work although not yet fully field tested.

Regards

[rswaffie]

Sorry Julian, but I don’t feel the response is in any way acceptable. If the o/p’s description is anything to go by, it is abundantly clear that certain components used in your product are not fit for purpose. E10 fuel is irrelevant as it is unlikely that any owners are using this in their cars. The fact that you are looking at external pump solutions suggests you know your current product is flawed. Why are you not looking at the components that may be an issue in the submersible pump to get them resolved? It will be the same fuel flowing through an external pump so how is this going to be any different? Would using nylon hoses on the submersible pump instead of rubber be an option? What have you considered as a possible solution for the existing pump?
Why would I place any more faith in a different product?

[trondvo]

The materials were definitely under par, no questions asked. I installed the pump March 2017.

We have good quality gas in Norway, I have run mostly 95 octane in the past but switched to 98 this summer and will stick to that. I use STA-BIL fuel stabiliser in the tank when storing for winter, sometimes I add 104+ octane booster if I have had pinging. That pinging may have been lack of fuel from a struggling pump though.

In my mind the price of that submerged pump was very fair and if the materials had held up it would have been very good.

My car stalled in my garage not in Southern France. I would advice to open up and check the pump if you have one of those in your car. Maybe ist was a bad batch but the condition of the hoses was among the worst I have seen after 4 years of use.

The pump was all right, the bracket was fine. I would suggest use of nylon pipe or metal plumbing and that pump will be fine. On my pump the negative pole was overtightened and spun. Somewhat exposed cabling, perhaps solid wires should be used inside the tank and maybe with a small inline fuse on the outside.

The difference is in the details, I cant say corners were cut but all the clamping and rubbers could have been replaced with a simple piece of metal or nylon. I am going to run external pumps in my cars though.

That was my 2 cents on that pump

[MarekH]

The materials were definitely under par, no questions asked. I installed the pump March 2017.

The materials are actually good, but the wrong material has been used for the job in this case.

Rubber hose marked as SAEJ30R9 only means the inside of the hose meets that standard, so is fine if used outside the tank, but I suspect it needs a protective sheaf around it because it is either not UV stable long term or is simply mechanically fragile. It's the exterior protection which isn't safe to be immersed in petrol 24/7 for years on end and this is what leads to failure. The exterior needs to be made from the type of rubber as SU use for their lift pump diaphragms, if rubber is to be used at all.

I would suggest use of nylon pipe or metal plumbing and that pump will be fine.

That's exactly what I have done for my in-tank pump. I machined up some press fit fittings for the fuel pickup screen and for the pump and joined them with some metal fuel pipe.

It's sad that it takes several years for problems like this to emerge, but most people design things to "work", rather than consider the likely failure modes as part of the design and then design. That's how we learn!

kind regards
Marek

[Allrand]

Amazingly my original 3.8 fhc submersible pump lay in a box in garage for 35 years. When I installed it at the end of the restoration it worked just fine. Never attempted to strip or clean it.

[Desmo]

Hello,

Can the original Lucas 2FP fuel pumps be repaired?

Best regards
John

[rswaffie]

I was going to ask the same thing, as I still have my original in a box somewhere and I know that the pump did work as I bench tested it. I seem to remember there was a guy in the US that refurbished them on a returns basis, but that was a few years ago.

[Geoff Allam]

Look in the knowledge section. There is an article by Mike Cassidy about submersible pump repair.

[JulianBarratt]

Afternoon all,
To update further on the above the current submerged pumps that we produce use Cohline 2190.0615 hose. This hose is able to take 15% ethanol through it and can be submerged in 100% ethanol.
Therefore there is no need for a sleeve or any changes to the material that we are using.
We have been using the same hose for at least 3 years (prior to the arrival of E5 in the UK).

With regards to why we are producing the conversion kit to the external pump - this is in response to customer demand and, also, we feel it would be good to have this option available because, in theory, with this set up we would only be having to worry about the internal qualities of the fuel system components. It also gives the advantage of being able to use a more commonly used fuel pump (such as the SU version or one of the others mentioned in the threads). Currently, for Jaguar applications, the submerged type pump is only used on a handful of cars - the S2 XJ being one though there may be others that don't immediately spring to mind. Currently, for the 3.8 version, sourcing a suitable pump can be more challenging due to the lower volumes and spec requirements.

However, with that being said, we are not suggesting that we discontinue the submersed pumps and there arent any current supply issues. As explained above, the pumps we offer are fit for purpose and we plan to carry on producing them.

I hope this clarifies the situation and i remain more than happy to investigate further if needed.

p.s. i like the idea of the the smaller pump location in this thread so we will investigate this.

[abowie]

Amazingly my original 3.8 fhc submersible pump lay in a box in garage for 35 years. When I installed it at the end of the restoration it worked just fine. Never attempted to strip or clean it.

Yes. I have 2 of them that work perfectly in a cupboard somewhere.

[trondvo]

The pump I installed may be good for years to come but I am looking to make the installation better, pump should be quiet, reliable and ideally 3-6 psi. I am using the Malpassi filterking with glassbowl to get the right pressure.

Both SummitRacing and Jegs have lots of pumps, buy them where you want but the websites are fine for narrowing in on suitable pumps.
Filter on voltage, pressure and gph if you may. Most important is low pressure, I suppose 2.5 up to 8 may be ideal with a fuel pressure regulator.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/par ... fuel-pumps
https://www.jegs.com/c/Fuel-Pumps_Elect ... 7/10002/-1

I am going to order Holley 12-426 - Holley Mighty Mite Electric Fuel Pumps to replace the cheapo pump I installed. 4 psi and 95 liters pr hours should be fine.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... rts/12-426

https://documents.holley.com/199r10683rev2.pdf

"Holley Mighty Mite electric fuel pumps are small in size, but BIG on performance! They are quiet, easy to install, and work with gas, diesel, blended alcohol, and E85. The pumps use a standard 12 V power source; while a reliable solid-state design provides longer life. Mighty Mites have a simple 2-wire hookup, are self-priming and regulating, and deliver super-quiet operation at only 65 dB! They are 12 in. dry lift capable and great for carbureted trucks, cars, generators, and agricultural equipment. You can also use them as transfer pumps!"



Another interesting option, very compact
https://tinyurl.com/288mbxe4

[trondvo]

OK, the Holley pump is a great candidate. The size is fine, it is very well built and the spare wheel will clear below it.

Have not tested noise but will replace the cheapo pump this coming weekend and see.

"Mockup" in the '62 FHC

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Very compact, should get smaller nipples to ease install on nylon pipe but why not upgrade to a better fuel line at the same time. Pump is threaded and with a threaded banjo one can use a hard line on pressure side.

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[PhilBell]

I've had an SNG in-tank pump like that in my 3.8 for approx 10 years and 20k miles. Looked fine when I had it out this year to inspect the fuel tank condition. I've always used super unleaded, mainly Shell and switchd to Esso recently when I discovered that has no ethanol in my part of the country. During previous layups for work or wimter salt avoidance I usually drained the whole system of fuel.
Carburettor innards show no deterioration either, bar some light oxidation inside one of the float chambers.

[trondvo]

Just documenting the Holley pump swap, it installed fine and the pump is quiet. An ideal solution would be a smaller pump but this unit will do. It seem to be made in hard nylon and if mounted to the rear bulkhead it should be able to take some beating from the spare if it had to.

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[nichmoss]

Thanks for your research into this.

It looks like you have a completely floating mount - the pump is just cable tied to a board and that is not securely fixed to the bulkhead. Is this what Holley recommend? This would concern me.

Regards, Chris