Torsion bar reaction plate - serious trouble found...

[Durango2k]

I tried to fit the TB reaction plate today. Oh no.

As I wrote earlier, the inner chassis rails on the drivers side (LH)did not have a hole for the large (1/2" ?) bolt. Under the car, the hole is there, but did not match nicely inside, I had to use my dremel to widen and modify it a bit to be able to slide the bolt in.

After some test-drilling I found the right place in the footwell , drilled a hole which was difficult because my drilling machine is very long, so hard to do in the footwell.
I could not drill from the underside of the car, because engine + gearbox + rest of drivetrain are fitted already.

Now, after all that worked fine I fitted the TBRP, and its ok on the RH side. The bolts all fit, the holes line up nicely.

On the left however, I found that the TBRP is about 8 mm too far up.

This explains why it touches the engine stiffener on the LH side, and why the 2 TB "egg plate" holes do not line up by 8 mm in height.

It looks as if the left chassis rail was maybe swapped in the car's past, and that it was fitted way up too high.

That means I am in trouble. Something has to be done to solve this.

Now, I can only think of a few solutions:

a) change / moove chassis rail downwards: no way, it would mean hacking half of the car apart.

b) cut out a bit on top of the TBRP, so that the engine stiffener triangle does not foul anymore, and drill/ widen the 2 TB "egg plate" holes to be oval. Problem is that the TB + TB egg won't center in the TBRP.

c) my preferred idea right now- cut off the sideways single large bolt mounting from the TBRP, fit the plate using the 2 TB "egg plate" holes and bolts, fit the single large bolt mounting using the 1/2" large bolt to the chassis rail, and weld the two parts together from under the car.

Then take the TBRP off the car again, and weld up the rest properly.

This would fix all of the above problems, except maybe the TB "egg plate" may be a little bit tight on the rear end. I could grind of a bit of the cylindrical mounting, to gain a few mill....


What would you do ?

Carsten

[nefematic]

Carsten,

I wouldn't drill or weld until it's clear what's amiss. If the frame rails have faulty height you surely would be able to measure that? Do you have a 2+2 nearby to rake exact measurements? If anything measured on my OTS will help I'm happy to get pics or measures.

Martin

[What would you do ?][/quote]

[mgcjag]

Hi Carsten i have a 69 S2 2+2 on a ramp if you need measurements/photos.... Steve

[Durango2k]

Hi guys,

Thanks for offering measurements, but in fact it is very simple:

a) the two holes on the frame fitted triangle miss / foul the TB holes by about 8 mil in height, they are not even near.

b) the plate fouls the engine, there is zero clearance. On the RH side there is some clearance.

c) the large round hole for the TB "egg" does not go into the TB plate.

d) all observations are with the large bolt fitted only.

I can and will try to loosen the large bolt and hammer the TB a bit downwards, but IIRC the bolt did not have much clearance in the tubing inside the rail.

I can take pics tomorrow.

Carsten

[Durango2k]

Oh,

One thing I can try is to fit the plate without the thick bolt, scratch where this would have to be, then modify the rail locally. Somehow, don't know how.

It is front- open, you can reac inside, so with an electric saw I could cut the tube, moove it down, spot- weld it as good as I can, and thats it.

Second possibility is to cut - open the rail from below, to open a "window" for the final 10 or so cm, it's easier to work on it

I could only apply 2 long cuts and bend it down and back....

After displacing the inner tube, re-weld it, flatten with grinder, cover in paint to hide this mess from MOT man...

Carsten

[nefematic]

Would heightened engine mounts or gear mount make a difference? That wouldn't explain the (lopsided) 8mm though.

[Durango2k]

Hi Martin,

Its all brand new- front mounts, rear spring.

Again, the three longitudinal holes all miss by 6-8 mil, the transversal large one for the footwell bolt is actually fitted with the thick bolt.

What made me believe the chassis rail is the problem is that it is a multi-layer metal there, if you look inside the rail you can see the vertical metal of the tunnel. I had to use the dremel to take this away a bit from top - again, if the rail is too high this would be what you'd expect.

Current plan is using a thin 1 mm disc, cut the rail on the lower flat, make a window to enable me to work inside, fit the 3 holes (frame triangle / reac plate), correct the inner tube and side holes, and weld it all up, protect, and finish it up.

Carsten

[andrewh]

sounds a bit of a problem! I feel for you. But not having looked at the 2 + 2 set up I cannot quite visualise your problem.

When you say the chassis rails are fitted incorrectly, is this possible given that they fit on the bottom of the floor ( assuming this is the same as other series one cars)

Did you buy the car complete ? Has it been together as is before or has the car had extensive welding carried out?

If in any doubt about this critical item, I would drop the engine and box out of the way and access the area with ease. I cannot think it can be that far apart. I have heard of cars being welded without the RP fitted and then it cannot be slid in between the rails, but this does not sound the problem in your case. Perhaps you can get some photos of the problem from underneath and post up. I feel sure the answer will be here on the forum

[Durango2k]

I bought the chassis from Pete in around 2009. It was restored some time ago in the 90s or earlier.

I found some bondo in the rear end area and wheel arches, and now this problem with the TB.

No offence, it was not expensive, and my chassis was waaaaayyy more rotten.
In fact it was a huge jump forward, both money- and timewise.

Getting back to the rails, I do believe now that the rails are in fact a top-open U shape when you fit them. The are spot-welded onto the inner footwell, and form the lower inner tunnel sideways.

If you now put them on the car from below, shift them up, and do not fit a TB plate then, before welding, exactly this error seems possible.

I mean I cannot really make it any worse by opening the rail from below.
I can close- weld it afterwards, its very easy to protect after closing it from the front, because they are open.

And this way I can take this area back to spec, whilst all other solutions involve modifying the TB plate and hacking metal away.

After all, it's still a series 1 E-Type...

Carsten

[PeterCrespin]

I think the tub was quite well repaired although plating a steel tub will almost invariably require some filler to get the good external paint finish that shell had.

It sounds to me like your engine height issues and tunnel/gearbox fouling are all related. The body appeared to sit flat and level on the main chassis rails as these were the contact area for the rigid dolly it came with. I think if your frames fitted OK you need to think some more before you start hacking because I'd expect 8mm misalignment at the rail insertion to give you problems elsewhere with that frsme's attachment points.

Since you have drilled holes and admit difficulty lining things up, are you sure the reaction plate is not out of line because the holes are wrong?

[Durango2k]

Hi Pete,

I think with a standard E gearbox there would not be the OD conversion problems. With the correct spring, a head loosely put on the block, new front bearings, height of gearbox seems to be fine. Its just the width of the OD which was a bit troublesome. The speedo angle drive for example just touches on the lower right, and on the left there are 2 places where bolt heads touch as well. So I have modded the tunnel at these spots, the rest is ok, somehow. The cover fits fine. Sadly I threw the old foam away, believing it to be a 'murican mod, back then in my very early E-Type days.

I think I could not get it- how complex these cars are. In their own way, they are complicated, maybe even more then a large Citroen- see how much you have to do around the torsion bars if the car is finished and you need to change height- zero access to the TB plate eggs below the carbs and so on, so lots of things to remove before getting even near them.

Now, back to the TBRP, I cannot see how this very thick metal part may suffer. It looks straight, but I can try to do some measurements left vs. right of course. Does not look accidented, and even if, it would not be bent upwards on the left side.

Sadly I was running out of time yesterday evening, so I did not take fotos. All I have is a last-second pic which I'll upload here now, from above, to show how tight it is below the engine triangle.

I can see no other reason but a too-far-up front left chassis rail. Very clearly at least the floors where swapped on this car, maybe the rails. The inner holes inside the rail did not easily line up at the gas pedal area, and there was no gas pedal mount at all.

Even one more idea of a bad fix came around my brain last night- I could grind the bolt thinner at the first 2 cms where it goes through the TBRP cylindrical mounting point- but that would weaken it, so....better not. But doing this I could leave all the other points as is, what a dream....

Again, I will line up the thre front holes, two small one large, and then judge how to continue with the large 1/2" bolt to the left.

Carsten

[Durango2k]

Oh one more point- the frames had no rust, and I could insert all bolts nicely. Not much fiddling req'd. I did set all the bolts in one go, the torqued them all around. Frames not bent, so I believe the triangle part to be fine and straight

Carsten

[1954Etype]

Carston, can you put some photos up? As Pete says, don't start modifying anything yet!

[Durango2k]

Hi guys,

Here's the one pic I have now.



The triangle upper hole is a bit elongated- this is how it came to me, did not change anything on them. Should have repaired that earlier, but did not see it until now.

More later, its raining small pics hereover, and we're having a long breakfast, tea and marmelade.

Will go to the shed later, and take pics, as - is and partly assembled.

Will do no mods now !

Carsten

[Durango2k]

First, you see th LH side: sadly the ipad uploads it rotated, but the main point is the clearly visible offset:




Here we have the right side: everything lines up nicely:



Here we have a complete underview of the car. It looks as if the left side is a bit bent upwards ?




Oh and if you look carefully, you can see my modified gearbox mount. Its asymetric to the right side, because I had to cut a small piece of the floor, to be able to fit the OD (speedo angle drive).


Carsten

[PeterCrespin]

If the large bolt hole for the reaction plate had been drilled/modified after the reaction plate was correctly secured to the frame ears presumably you would have everything lined up? By drilling it first you now have to modify everythi g else? Maybe I misunderstood.

Meanwhile, although I can accept some slight relieving at the tunnel for the speedo drive, I don't understand why your gearbox mount is not central and normal. The OD pin is in exactly the same place as the four speed. If the box and mount are asymmetric you may now run into propshaft trouble? Hope not...p

[Durango2k]

Hi Pete,

The inner hole in the LH rail was there. The footwell side was not.

So, me drilling in the footwell would not alter the hole's height at all. Its still a mystery.

All I can do now is line the rest up, and recreate the rail hole so that it fits.

Regarding the gearbox mount, its very simple. Of course the mounting plate fits the centre pin, and still aligns with all the chassis holes / welded nuts in the floors.

However, on the right side the speedo drive fouls the tunnel, so I had to cut out the adjacent welded floor nut, cut out a bit of the tunnel above it, and re-shape this area a bit towards the seat. Then I set a new nut in the floor, by about 2cm or so.


Carsten

[nefematic]

Carsten,
hard to tell from the pics. Looking closely at the underside picture the distance from the floor to the center TB looks different from side to side, without considering RP. So even if you lowered the RP on the left that difference wouldn't change? I need to get under my car and have a good long look how this fits together. I would take a spirit level from the floor forward and try to measure the height difference left / right, in regard to floor, rail, TB and RP. Just to really see where the differences really are.
Martin

[Durango2k]

Hi Martin,

Its a bit problematic to take measures- I thought about that too of course, but the problem is, that the car rests on wooden blocks in the front.

All I can thus try is to use a water gauge (Wasserwaage), and level the frames first, then go and measure.

Will try that.

Carsten

[nefematic]

Sent pm.