Clutch prob?

[Chrisj]

Hello all

As I mentioned in my previous post. Not long after getting my car my clutch (I assume) went.
Now after two weekends removing everything I expected to find the a definitive problem. The pressure plate broken or another obvious sign. But I didn't.
The way it started was earlier in the day the clutch slipped a few times and then I couldn't get it into gear as it howled and bucked when trying. If I turned the engine off and put it in gear and and then started with my foot on the clutch,i when released I got no drive although it revved. I could also move through the gears easily when turned off. But could not get any further and had to be towed home. Whilst my engine and everything is out is there anything I should be looking for that would have caused this. There is also some strange scoring on the centre rim. Complete novice here so if my explanation and description sounds stupid I do apologise.
Also on a final note is there anything else I should be doing whilst it's all out.

Kind regards

Chris

[mgcjag]

Chris was having problems posting photes.....so he sent them to me

[BRM]

Hi Chris, I don't claim to be an expert but my guess is that you have a break in the diaphragm somewhere round the circumference where it is hidden under the pressure plate. This would explain your slipping / gear engagement problems.

It might also allow the centre to be pushed further forward than normal when you operate the clutch causing it to contact the driven plate which would explain the wear in the centre of the diaphragm. Is there corresponding wear on the centre of the driven plate ?

[mgcjag]

Hi Chris...whilst the engine is out have a good look and if needed change the engine and gearbox mounts....also look at the prop shaft joints..you can only remove the propshaft if either the engine/gearbox or IRS is removed so a good time to check it

[PeterCrespin]

It's a clutch. If in doubt, throw it out.

The flywheel needs a skim now for sure.

You have posted some decent pictures but they can't match looking carefully at your parts and working out by sight what is interfering with what. When you've eyeballed the precise abnormal wear or rubbing, you then have to figure out how the parts came together and why the abnormal contact or wear arose. Banish/ameliorate the abnormal contact (or looseness?) and the job's done. It's not complex - there are only a few options, but we can't see enough to be of much use compared to the multiple views you have. I'm assuming your release bearing and pressure plate are compatible, which in a new kit they will be, but I can't see your parts.

[abowie]

I too can only assume that the diaphragm spring is either broken or has come loose so that it doesn't retract the pressure plate properly when the clutch is depressed. A bit of disassembly work with an angle grinder would confirm this.

Are you absolutely confident in the state of the hydraulics?

As to "other things to do" I am perhaps not the best advisor. I have just dealt with a worn friction plate in my S1 FHC.

I had some noisy tappets so I took the head off while the engine was out. Then i thought that refreshing the rings and bearibgs on my 10K mile engine would be easy and sensible... To cut a long story short I have ended up doing a total engine rebuild, having the gearbox overhauled as well as replacing the clutch.

Replacing the engine mounts with the steel sheathed uprated ones is a must IMO; there is too much variation in quality of the standard ones to risk using them.

[PeterCrespin]

Then i thought that refreshing the rings and bearibgs on my 10K mile engine would be easy and sensible...

Give me a decent 10k engine over a brand new one any day. You can wring its neck at ten thousand if the mood strikes you.

[PeterCrespin]

Can Chris send you a photo of the gearbox side of the clutch plate. The flywheel side visible is clearly not the side making contact with the diaphragm spring. I'd also like to see the gearbox side of the pressure plate, and the release bearing too.

The symptoms sound like clutch drag from the rubbing between friction plate centre and the diaphragm spring centre. That would cause noise and drag even with the pressure plate fully unclamped.

Somehow - probably by wrong adjustment or wrong parts - the diaphragm is contacting the friction plate. Logically, either the release bearing, friction plate and cover are correct but wrong hydraulics or adjustment are moving the spring too deep, or the hydraulics are giving the right stroke and adjustment, but the parts are wrong and that's why they're touching.

There seems to be a rubbing mark on the flywheel perimeter from 9 to 12 which wouldn't be explained by the above but may be a trick of the light. Either way, we need the photos requested.

[mgcjag]

Hi Peter....here are both sides of the friction plate....will post more when Chris gets them to me thanks Steve



In the 2nd photo do those 4 small white looking marks on the friction plate look like where the spring is making contact

[Chrisj]

Hello everyone.

Many thanks for all your help and advice. I'll get some photos over to to Steve who's been a life saver, until i manage to get my photo bucket account working properly.
My experience is zero, so the more information I gather the better. I've ordered a new kit which looks physically identical but I understand it's more complex than that.

[BRM]

In the 2nd photo do those 4 small white looking marks on the friction plate look like where the spring is making contact

Yes. They are the tips of four metal lugs, not sure what they are but they are shiny and clearly what the centre of the diaphragm has been contacting. Of course if this was happening when the clutch was depressed it would have a similar effect to the clutch being partly engaged I.e. graunching when trying to engage gear, as described.

Chris, had you driven the car much before this happened ? I presume it drove normally beforehand, so I can't see that wrong parts could be the explanation. This was something that happened suddenly and started with clutch slipping.

I'm sticking with my previous explanation.

[64etype]

....a gent in the local club installed the disk front to back and it worked for a short while. Long shot, but it has happened....

[Chrisj]

I had previously driven it off and on for a few weeks and with picking up the car probably covered 300 plus miles.
It always had a slight issue graunching when changing between 1st and 2nd. And I occasionally had to pump the clutch once before changing between those gears, if that's an indication of the problem ?

[mgcjag]

To assist Chris or reasembly and becaus im not sure and 64etype mentioned above which way around should the new clutch plate be fitted....also Chris dont forget to mail me the photos as requested by Peter of the release bearing and gearbox side of the pressure plate

[paulsco]

The clutch plate should be fitted with the large part of the splined hub centre facing the gearbox.

Paul

[PeterCrespin]

The friction plate is stamped 'Flywheel Side'. It looks like a standard Borg & Beck oressure plate and driven plate. It must have been right way round judging by the four worn spots. I can't conceive of a broken diaphragm spring occuring in normal use.

Pumping the clutch is a totally separate issue with hydraulics that could also cause drag. There's no reason there couldn't be more than one fault.

[mgcjag]

Photos posted for Chris....gerabox side of cover plate and release bearing



Lots of oil around that bell housing.....needs checking out and new oil seal

[paulsco]

There doesn't appear to be very much wrong with that clutch.
It doesn't look like the diaphragm has failed; the friction plate seems to be unworn and there is not much wear on the diaphragm.
The flywheel is warn, so was not refaced when the clutch was replaced.
The release bearing however seems to be quite warn; I don't know if it is the picture angle, but the thickness of the carbon ?? face looks quite thin.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAGUAR-CLUTCH ... 1936495714

Could it be that the slave cylinder adjusting rod was so tight that it was causing the clutch to slip and also push the centre of the diaphragm further than it was designed to move?

I am not sure if there is enough travel in the clutch fork to allow this though.

Doesn't really fit in with clutch drag though; I would put my money on slave cylinder problems; piston unable to retract enough; wrong type of cylinder; hydraulics etc.

Just a few thoughts; feel free to shoot me down if you disagree.

Paul

[johnney]

Looks like the release bearing is worn out also the input shaft splines should have a light coating of grease. In your picture they are dry and rusty.

[tinworm]

Unusual, but it looks to me that the clutch had no free play caused by rod adjustment/ wrong slave cylinder and/or wrong release bearing (there are two types which look the same, only one has more offset ) The release bearing has lost quite a lot of its carbon ring and looks as if it has got hot from being constantly in contact with the thrust pad on the clutch cover. I think one or more of the above items has caused over travel of the clutch which is when metal to metal contact was made by the back of the thrust pad and centre plate.
New clutch required and check slave / rod is correct.

regards Barrie