Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Talk about the E-Type Series 1

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kevin28
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#1 Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by kevin28 » Mon May 03, 2021 7:03 pm

Hello Everyone,

If anyone can offer advice I would be very grateful.
I have a continuous problem of caliper failure on the rear brakes.
On the first occasion the fluid boiled , vapour from both undersides of the rear wings and no brake pedal .
Both calipers were replaced , all ok but only for a short while.

On the second occasion , same problem , with the left hand side caliper being replaced.

On the third occasion I noticed before failure that the hand brake had to be lifted to almost
a vertical before biting, again with brake fluid leaking and very hot.I do not think a caliper was
replaced on this occasion.

Handbrake now ok.

On the present failure brake fluid is running from the underside and again was very hot / vapour
from underside of both wings.

The car has been to 2 separate repairers for the problem so am obviously reluctant to return it
for another try .It covers very few miles , only a few hundred between failures ,and is currently
in my garage .
I am assuming the calipers were from reputable suppliers , Robey /Barratts as both repairers were
professional restorers.

Anyone any advice please ?

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politeperson
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#2 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by politeperson » Mon May 03, 2021 7:39 pm

I wonder, if you disconnect/ remove your handbrake would the problem go away?

Sounds like something is holding the hand brake pads or the main brakes on, creating heat and boiling the fluid. So the front brakes are cold when the rear brakes are warm I take it?

So, possible culprits include
Driving with your foot resting on the brake pedal (unlikely).
Poorly adjusted hand brake mechanism
Seized handbrake mechanism,
un-seated hand brake pad return springs.
Dragging handbrake pad caused by mis-aligned hand brake caliper attachment pin
Collapsed flexible brake hose causing rear calipers to seize on
Seized calipers (unlikely)
Misaligned calipers.
Incorrect thickness rear discs (they are not all the same thickness )
Incorrect calipers!
Incorrectly adjusted master cylinder push-rod.

Thats all I can think of
James

L.J.K. Setright was right.
"You just cant beat a good E-type"

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rswaffie
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#3 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by rswaffie » Mon May 03, 2021 7:53 pm

Hi,
James beat me to the punch, so apologies for repeating some of his points.
Have any of the restorers stated what is causing the fluid to boil? Replacing calipers assumes they are the root cause but is that really the case? Excessive heat has to be caused by abnormal conditions such as ‘extreme’ friction for example. Calipers don’t generate friction on their own - either the pads and/or the discs would need to be involved as well. What were the condition of those items after this occurred?
Could it be that the pads are not releasing from the discs due to something other than the actual calipers and this is generating the heat? This would suggest incorrect setup of the rear braking system in general - are the discs the correct spec and not warped? Same for the pads. Are the gaps set correctly? Did the restorers check and test everything from the brake pedal back to the pads?
Richard

S1 3.8 FHC Opalescent Golden Sand with Tan Trim 889504
Now running-in my diy nut ‘n’ bolt restoration. :wrench: :hammer: :fingerscrossed:

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steve3.8
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#4 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by steve3.8 » Mon May 03, 2021 8:12 pm

Kevin ,
You don't say 4.2 or 3.8 ?. So with both rear calipers burning up i would guess at the rear master cylinder/bellows balance bar on a 3.8 or the servo master on a 4.2.
To create that much heat you should feel the brakes drag whilst driving ?.
Steve3.8

64 3.8 fhc, 67 4.2 fhc

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christopher storey
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#5 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by christopher storey » Tue May 04, 2021 6:32 am

Something is holding the brakes on under hydraulic pressure. Since it appears to be affecting only the rear brakes, if it is a 4.2 we can more or less rule out pedal master cylinder and/or servo master cylinder as the culprit, and that leaves an internally collapsed brake hose between the bodyshell and the irs unit as the most likely culprit . The only other thing I can think of ( but it is very unlikely ) is that the wrong rear discs have been fitted which are of excessive width . If it is a 3.8, then as others have suggested a possibility is that the balance arrangement on the servo has been misrigged

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Joes66
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#6 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by Joes66 » Tue May 04, 2021 8:58 am

I don't know who you are using to repair your car but after the first failure they should have found what the problem was before giving it back to you
For it to happen once is bad enough, but twice is putting you the customer at risk of death
And the destruction of your car
I used to run a classic car workshop and I wouldn't have let the car out of my workshop untill I had found out what caused the first brew up of your brakes
They are supposedly meant to be professionally qualified to work on your car
Its not your job to find out what the problem is,its theirs
Its what you pay them for
Take the car to someone that specialises in classic cars or better still e types or old jaguars
Joe
1969 series 2 2+2

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dxke38
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#7 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by dxke38 » Tue May 04, 2021 9:08 am

I had a similar problem on my 3.8 but it was the front brakes affected. After checking the callipers and discs I then found that the master cylinder piston was sticking slightly and not always returning when releasing the brake pedal. It wasn't enough to feel drag on the brakes but it did create a hell of lot of heat and boiled the fluid.
Derek
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2.

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44DHR
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#8 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by 44DHR » Tue May 04, 2021 1:31 pm

Sorry, just seen this.
Do we know what model of E type this is ?
I can’t believe its anything to do with the handbrake as these are small pads and completely separate from the hydraulic circuit. A common problem when the brakes can seize on is the Reaction Valve piston seizing in the Master brake cylinder and this causes the Servo not to release and this locks on the front brakes. It is pretty apparent as it is obvious the brakes are binding due to resistance, blueing of the discs and often squeaking.
However, depending on the E type model, for example if it was a 4.2 litre, the dual line system Servo was connected differently between the early and later models.
On the earlier models the front brake outlet from the servo slave cylinder fed the front circuit and on later cars, the front outlet fed the rear brakes.
Potentially, if the servo is incorrectly plumbed in, a seized Reaction Valve could be locking the rear circuit and the calipers on ? This would not be so noticeable as the fronts being locked on.
I would check who fitted the servo and how it is plumbed in to ensure it is correct for the model.
Just a thought.
Regards,
Dave
Dave Rose
1967 Series 1 4.2 FHC

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kevin28
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#9 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by kevin28 » Tue May 04, 2021 6:22 pm

Hello Everyone,

Many thanks for your replies , I should have stated beforehand the car is a 3.8l, number 850646 , not realising this mattered.
I dont know if this is important or possibly caused by the failure, but on switching on the ignition now, no engine running, brake fluid runs out freely from the rear assy.

The front brakes have never given me any problem.

You do feel the rear brakes causing a problem whilst driving as this is the first indication that something is wrong .

I did not receive an explanation of why the calipers had failed in the first instance , I did ask the question though did not obtain a straight answer.I did see the calipers on the first failure and it looked like anything that could melt had done so. I did not see the single caliper which was replaced on the second occasion.

It would appear my problem could be any or a mixture of faults , thanks again to everyone for your knowledge , I can copy this list and present it to a competent repairer.
I live in County Durham and I dont think there are not many of this car in my area .
If anyone has any further suggestions or anything which would be of value , please add. :thankyouyellow:

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44DHR
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#10 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by 44DHR » Tue May 04, 2021 7:21 pm

Hi Kevin, (?)
I’m a bit worried now about your second paragraph that “on switching on the ignition now, no engine running, brake fluid runs out freely from the rear”. That should not be happening unless you have a bleed valve open ! I would be more worried about the potential damage leaking brake fluid could do to your paint in that area or spraying onto other areas.

Now we know you have 3.8, this has a different system to the 4.2 litre series of E types.
Just for completeness and in case I was correct about a potential incorrect plumbing of the 4.2 litre Dual line servo tandem brake cylinder. I have just been out to the garage and as mine is later 4.2 car, I have just taken some photos. These show that on my car, the front port on the servo goes back and down to the brake sensor and then off to the rear brakes. That would have been a simple check if you had an earlier 4.2 as this front port on the servo is reversed and linked to the front brakes - the opposite to my system. You can see the black pipe with the yellow stripe from the brake reservoir going into second port and then on my car the third port - nearest the servo unit - coming out and running forward to the front brakes.
I don’t know about the 3.8 system, so perhaps others can now help ?
Regards,
Dave

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Dave Rose
1967 Series 1 4.2 FHC

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christopher storey
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#11 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by christopher storey » Wed May 05, 2021 6:21 am

kevin28 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 6:22 pm

I dont know if this is important or possibly caused by the failure, but on switching on the ignition now, no engine running, brake fluid runs out freely from the rear assy.
This is the weirdest situation I have ever come across. Are you saying that with ignition off, there is no leakage? But that once you turn it on, without starting the engine or pressing the brake pedal, fluid leaks out ?

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rswaffie
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#12 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by rswaffie » Wed May 05, 2021 7:01 am

Yes, very odd. My initial thought when I read that was that it was fuel leaking from the boot/rear bulkhead union when the pump is on. But I would have thought the fuel smell would be a giveaway!
Richard

S1 3.8 FHC Opalescent Golden Sand with Tan Trim 889504
Now running-in my diy nut ‘n’ bolt restoration. :wrench: :hammer: :fingerscrossed:

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politeperson
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#13 Re: Series 1 rear brakes recurring failure.

Post by politeperson » Wed May 05, 2021 1:05 pm

Maybe he filled up the fuel tank with brake fluid?

(joking)
James

L.J.K. Setright was right.
"You just cant beat a good E-type"

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