S2 bonnet on S1.5 car?

[FrankMolleman]

Thanks for the excellent assistance. I will post more pictures Friday, and will inform if the E-type ends up in Holland.

[PeterCrespin]

The 1.5 judging guide is incorrect of some points, for example it states that one of the ways a car can be quickly identified as a S1.5 is by the dash having rocker switches. Not so as plenty of the later S1 cars had toggle switches.

Your statement doesn't actually make sense (suggesting a JCNA criterion for S1.5 cars having rockers is wrong because S1 cars had toggles).

Be that as it may, the JCNA guide is as accurate as humanly possible to date. This doesn't mean it cannot and does not change with emerging new info, but if you think you know something they don't, and have a reliable source for your data, they'd love to hear from you.

They check everything from factory records (which are fallible occasionally) but just saying they are wrong doesn't cut it at all. You should provide chapter and verse if you want to correct something, but from vague memory they have totally covered the dashboard issues.

Pete

[johnney]

The 1.5 judging guide is incorrect of some points, for example it states that one of the ways a car can be quickly identified as a S1.5 is by the dash having rocker switches. Not so as plenty of the later S1 cars had toggle switches.

Your statement doesn't actually make sense (suggesting a JCNA criterion for S1.5 cars having rockers is wrong because S1 cars had toggles).

Be that as it may, the JCNA guide is as accurate as humanly possible to date. This doesn't mean it cannot and does not change with emerging new info, but if you think you know something they don't, and have a reliable source for your data, they'd love to hear from you.

They check everything from factory records (which are fallible occasionally) but just saying they are wrong doesn't cut it at all. You should provide chapter and verse if you want to correct something, but from vague memory they have totally covered the dashboard issues.

Pete

That's a bit selective Peter ! I wrote Later S1 not S1. Plenty of the later S1 cars (so called S1.5) had toggle switches. Look at the cars listed on XKE Data after the relevant chassis numbers for reference. Page 2 of the judging guide states Only by examining the engine bay and centre dash (Or the chassis numbers) can one determine whether the subject is a series 1.25 or a series 1.5. with pictures on page 4 to back up that statement. Again on page 5 it states under the heading " Model year 68 (Series 1.5) E Types. Other than checking chassis numbers a Series 1.5 can be identified quickly by the following obvious features. Interior: Black plastic rocker switches on the center dash below the instruments" None of which is vague! only wrong.

[johnney]

The JNCA guide states for example that Right hand drive FHC S1.25 cars ended at chassis number 1E21583. So we can infer from this that Series 1.5 started at 1E21584 and should have (According to the guide) rocker switches on the centre dash. A quick check of the following chassis numbers on XKE Data show that everyone of them have toggle switches.
1E21595, 1E21609, 1E21610, 1E21672, 1E21675, 1E21701, 1E21722, 1E21748, 1E21826, 1E21835, 1E21841, 1E21844,1E21872, 1E21887, 1E21900, 1E21915, 1E21927.

[PeterCrespin]

That's a bit selective Peter ! I wrote Later S1 not S1.

It was supposed to be selective, the rest was kosher IIRC. Everything before S2 is officially S1.

Had you written S1.25 I wouldn't have commented. Indeed as I understand it (the whole area is somewhat moot), the definition of an 'S1.25' is that it is identical in every way to all previous S1 cars apart from open lights, so toggles are mandatory for that spec, hence all later S1s could be said to have them until the more altered S1.5 came along?

It's a bit of a minefield though and my only real point was that the JCNA people are not mugs. They have all the factory records and cross-check each other's work against spares lists etc (which don't always agree.).

So if you think a cursory check of XKEData blows a hole in their list, then you could do worse than copy your email to whatever contact details are in the judging guide and see what they reply?

Pete

[christopher storey]

Do they have all the factory records ? And if so , how ?

[johnney]

Had you written S1.25 I wouldn't have commented. Indeed as I understand it (the whole area is somewhat moot), the definition of an 'S1.25' is that it is identical in every way to all previous S1 cars apart from open lights, so toggles are mandatory for that spec, hence all later S1s could be said to have them until the more altered S1.5 came along? It's a bit of a minefield though and my only real point was that the JCNA people are not mugs. They have all the factory records and cross-check each other's work against spares lists etc (which don't always agree.). So if you think a cursory check of XKEData blows a hole in their list, then you could do worse than copy your email to whatever contact details are in the judging guide and see what they reply?

Pete

I never said they were mugs Peter just wrong, not quite the same is it. I don't have any axe to grind with JNCA, whom I'm sure are trying their best to put out a meaningful guide for show contestants and judges. You asked me to back it up with chapter and verse and I did. So Either the cars listed above don't exist and/or JNCA haven't stated in their guide that cars after chassis number 1E21583 have rocker switches. Take your pick or are you not disputing this?

They have all the factory records and cross-check each other's work against spares lists etc (which don't always agree.)."

But not XKE data apparently and "Records that don't agree" doesn't sound like a very reliable source of reference material. "Way to go" as they say in the states. I'm very surprised to hear that JNCA have all the factory records.

[Heuer]

Yes, here we were criticising CCR for having a set of records and it now looks like another set has mysteriously walked out of the Factory. Can we all have a set please?

[steve3.8]

The JNCA guide states for example that Right hand drive FHC S1.25 cars ended at chassis number 1E21583. So we can infer from this that Series 1.5 started at 1E21584 and should have (According to the guide) rocker switches on the centre dash. A quick check of the following chassis numbers on XKE Data show that everyone of them have toggle switches.
1E21595, 1E21609, 1E21610, 1E21672, 1E21675, 1E21701, 1E21722, 1E21748, 1E21826, 1E21835, 1E21841, 1E21844,1E21872, 1E21887, 1E21900, 1E21915, 1E21927.

if you read it again the JNCA is stating and showing there is a descrepancy between the build records and the spares bulletins , ie 1e21584 fhc rhd is listed correct in the spares bulletin for the first open headlight .

if you scroll down to the red text it refers to 1e21583 in the build record ending column with a "2" above as the last series1 car and does not include S1.5 .

I think the term 1.25 has come about because the USA were supplied open headlight cars with no other visual changes for approx 6 months before the UK market , after the uk supply started ( July 67 ) more changes brought the term 1.5 .

[PeterCrespin]

I wasn't saying that JCNA had a full set of build records, although as a factory- initiated and officially owned/sponsored club for many decades if anyone would, they would... The fact that despite such total factory involvement for years, the in-house club DON'T have full build records, is therefore further evidence to support the contention that anyone who does is under a cloud of suspicion as to their provenance.

I meant they have every full and interim spares list, every service and technical and service bulletin and lots of correspondence. I was at the AGM and I have to say that my eyes glazed over at some of the arcane discussion on minutiae which learned experts engaged in. We need such people of course, to separate fact from fiction, but the attention to detail is mind-boggling. Things get added/changed only when there is incontrovertible proof and even having a one-owner car isn't conclusive if there are questions about what may have been done to the car twixt Browns Lane and the customer, via shipping damage, the remediation workshops at LA and NYC, and the local dealer.

My recommendation still stands that if someone, anyone, thinks they've found a flaw in the received wisdom they should forward it to whoever's version of The Truth they feel is in error. Personally, I'm pretty indifferent to the whole S1.25 sub class thing. WYSIWYG etc.

Pete

[johnney]

The JNCA guide states for example that Right hand drive FHC S1.25 cars ended at chassis number 1E21583. So we can infer from this that Series 1.5 started at 1E21584 and should have (According to the guide) rocker switches on the centre dash. A quick check of the following chassis numbers on XKE Data show that everyone of them have toggle switches.
1E21595, 1E21609, 1E21610, 1E21672, 1E21675, 1E21701, 1E21722, 1E21748, 1E21826, 1E21835, 1E21841, 1E21844,1E21872, 1E21887, 1E21900, 1E21915, 1E21927.

If you read it again the JNCA is stating and showing there is a descrepancy between the build records and the spares bulletins , ie 1e21584 fhc rhd is listed correct in the spares bulletin for the first open headlight .
Correct Steve, it does so my previous chassis number examples prove that the build records are wrong. Which of course begs the question if a quick check by myself can find that out why can't JNCA do the same allowing them to confirm that the build records are inaccurate and discount them.

if you scroll down to the red text it states that "2" is the last series1 car and does not include S1.5 .
Correct but take a look at last paragraph on page 1 of the JNCA guide, then on XKE Data at 1E21927 back to 1E21826, all of which have twin electric fans etc. According to the spares bulletin and JNCA they are 1.25 and should have a single fan. So the spares bulletin is also wrong as is the last paragraph on page 1.

I think the term 1.25 has come about because the USA were supplied open headlight cars with no other visual changes for approx 6 months before the UK market , after the uk supply started ( July 67 ) more changes brought the term 1.5 .

[johnney]

I wasn't saying that JCNA had a full set of build records, correct Peter you didn't, you said "They have all the factory records" Which would include all the build records would it not.

Things get added/changed only when there is incontrovertible proof and even having a one-owner car isn't conclusive if there are questions about what may have been done to the car twixt Browns Lane and the customer, via shipping damage, the remediation workshops at LA and NYC, and the local dealer.
Pete

Really Peter, are you serious ? if the factory records don't agree and you can't believe the authenticity of the cars then what's left? Where do they get their incontrovertible proof from, Leprechauns!

[Heuer]

Incidentally all the Jaguar Service Bulletins are available here: http://www.terrysjag.com/Genuine_Jaguar_Bulletins.html

I think the point Peter was making was that just because a car currently has toggle switches it does not mean it left the factory that way. And if one person thinks toggle switches are cute them it is likely that others do too (we call it 'morphic resonance') so the population will increase especially as it is so simple to swap over a rocker dash panel to a toggle one. My car and many others have voltmeters fitted in preference to the ammeter so in another 50 years they will be having a similar conversation about when exactly the voltmeter was fitted - '63, '64, '65 ???

[johnney]

So your saying that all the owners in the examples I gave have probably converted their cars to toggle switch's Not such a simple job either as the wiring has to be changed to suit the switch's and to support the inclusion of a clock. Also that they have all changed their radiators, radiator mounting brackets, Hoses, installed twin electric cooling fans, different header tanks and last but not least ribbed cam covers.

[Heuer]

No, only talking about the toggle switches.

[christopher storey]

I have a sense that no one will win this argument !

[Heuer]

Well spoken Christopher - time to move on methinks!

[PeterCrespin]

Really Peter, are you serious ? if the factory records don't agree and you can't believe the authenticity of the cars then what's left? Where do they get their incontrovertible proof from, Leprechauns!

As I've said all along Johnney, it's a bit of a minefield and really I'm not that bothered. JCNA can defend their own policy, they certainly don't need me.

I've merely learned in life that rarely does one person have some unique insight that calls into question the painstaking hard work of others. I say 'rarely', not 'never', since I have been in that position myself once or twice, so I'm quite happy to root for David against Goliath. If you need there to be a 'winner', or want mostly to look for areas of contention rather than agreement, be my guest.

If you choose not to take it up with JCNA and give them (delete according to taste) a) the benefit of your discovery b) a chance to explain their position, then that's entirely up to you and I won't think you are pot-stirring with no serious intent, because you may not be bothered about this stuff either, despite appearances.

Pete

[johnney]

[quote=
I've merely learned in life that rarely does one person have some unique insight that calls into question the painstaking hard work of others. I say 'rarely', not 'never', since I have been in that position myself once or twice, so I'm quite happy to root for David against Goliath. If you need there to be a 'winner', or want mostly to look for areas of contention rather than agreement, be my guest.

If you choose not to take it up with JCNA and give them (delete according to taste) a) the benefit of your discovery b) a chance to explain their position, then that's entirely up to you and I won't think you are pot-stirring with no serious intent, because you may not be bothered about this stuff either, despite appearances.

Pete[/quote]

I don't believe for one minute nor have I claimed to have unique insight, I don't need there to be a "Winner" and I don't consider myself to deserve the description inferred or otherwise of "someone who is mostly looking for areas of contention" or "Pot stirring with no serious intent" I merely pointed out, in good faith I might add what I believe to be a mistake in JNCA's guide and when asked to back it up with facts and figures did so. I might also add that I have owned a 1968 model year E type for 41 years, so might justifiably say that I have some experience of the cars in question however small or insignificant it might seem. So far only Steve has made a sensible, fair and constructive comment in reply.

[johnney]

Incidentally all the Jaguar Service Bulletins are available here: http://www.terrysjag.com/Genuine_Jaguar_Bulletins.html

I think the point Peter was making was that just because a car currently has toggle switches it does not mean it left the factory that way. And if one person thinks toggle switches are cute them it is likely that others do too (we call it 'morphic resonance') so the population will increase especially as it is so simple to swap over a rocker dash panel to a toggle one. My car and many others have voltmeters fitted in preference to the ammeter so in another 50 years they will be having a similar conversation about when exactly the voltmeter was fitted - '63, '64, '65 ???

And on a lighter note David, where after converting to toggle switches do all these owners stick their ignition keys dash or steering lock!