Latest S1 sale

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:05 am

Can't say I follow the logic.

'Dave should sell before the bubble bursts' is one line of thought, but then saying he should sell because insurance restrictions will become a bugger is arguing the opposite way.

If the bubble bursts the insurance hassle will ease off. If it doesn't, he should keep and enjoy his valuable appreciating asset.

We all know these cars mean different thing to different people and I think talk of money gets in the way of a nice hobby. I'd just as soon prices dropped like a stone tomorrow except for the effect on vendors. Even then, the spares people would probably be OK but some of the gazillion pound traders/restorers might hurt and have to knock a nought off their bills. Dave lent me his car this summer and apart from having nowhere much to put my size 13 clutch foot, his flat floor was fine to drive, whereas I heard how impractical they were. I was even converted to his Windbreaker after my initial scepticism. On a long motorway run even the foot thing would have been alright as I'd have threaded it under the clutch pedal.

Have fun with it Dave!

Pete

44DHR · Post by **44DHR** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:34 pm

All this talk of old cars, money and value. To the question we all get asked ?what?s it worth then mate ??, the question is always ?it?s worth whatever someone is prepared to pay for it?.

Having sat through some of the entertaining Monterey auctions last month, it?s quite scary to see how the ?ringmaster?, his floor staff and the auctioneer work together to whip up the assembled bidders to part with their money ? and I am talking often well into the several millions of dollars for cars that I personally wouldn?t be interested in. I feel it?s wrong that some cars now appear to be being used as a form of ?trading commodity?, but the auctions were great absorbing entertainment though !! As for Pebble Beach Concours d?Elegance - you could palpably smell the money there, but it clearly showed money doesn?t necessary mean good taste or judgement.

Thankfully we are all different and I?m clearly in the Dave K and Pete camp where the value of my cars to me are the pleasure they give me ? whether it be driving it down to Monaco or blasting through the Swiss Alps. I simply don?t see my ownership is purely a question of any perceived monetary ?value?, or equally how I choose to build or use my car - which I fully accept could well differ from the perception or requirements of another individual.

I once took a freshly restored car up to a club?s National Day at Donington Park and took the opportunity to call in on the way at the Marque Registrar to get an insurance valuation for that club?s insurance scheme. He loved the car and said that I would certainly be in the running for some of the top prizes, to which I said I wasn?t taking it for the Concours competition but had entered it in the Track Day event. He was genuinely horrified at my choice of use ? but I personally I would rather be pushing my car to the limit than sitting in a field cleaning out it?s tyre treads with a toothbrush. Each to the own I say.

I don?t personally agree that original is always best and that I have to remove my ?trick upgrades and return the car to original for that is where the value is?, although if the US$ 10 million plus just paid at Monterey for Steve McQueen?s Ferrari 275 GTB after a completely different colour paint job and sticking a roof back on counts as ?original?, then that?s a different definition to mine. As Dave K stated, I too have the original parts, but I prefer to have a car I can use safely use on today?s roads and keep it in one piece. In my eyes I have the best of both worlds as I have a car I can use and continue to add more ?value? in terms of its heritage and history.

I?m sure the owners of the cars racing at the Revival this weekend are not all concerned at potential racing damage ? in fact in that arena just getting the car to have a Goodwood appearance, any battle scars could be seen to add to the car?s value in some people?s eyes ? which flies against the ?keep it tucked up in a Museum theory?. Luckily we are all different in our views on values !!

Cheers,

Dave
(P.S . I will be at Goodwood all three days and parked at the Lavant Straight enclosure on the Sunday if anyone fancies a natter.)

Dave K · Post by **Dave K** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:39 pm

I simply don't see my car as some sort of megabucks car, I drive it to various supermarkets and park it slightly away from mainstream cars but not that far.

If I sold it I don't know what I'd do, it's been with me for 18 years and I have fitted and removed every component at least twice.
I haven't had it valued for about 8 years and at present the self valuation I gave to Peter James is ?75K, I have all the stuff ready to send off and must get round to it.
Now if someone comes forward with an offer of more than ?175K then I'd have to consider it but I can't see that happening to be honest, they take it as it is with all the parts to take it back to standard or they don't and walk away I don't care either way.
My E-Type, XJ, house and everything I have is for sale at the right price but I'm not going to actively promote any of them.

Dave

44DHR · Post by **44DHR** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:10 pm

I hundred per cent agree with Dave K.

You could say that everything is for sale at the right price - but in this instance that "right price" is what the seller deems it to be - not the buyer. It is what value the seller would choose to give up in return for a monetary gain. In Dave's and my case that intrinsic value is perhaps not measured in just currency alone. Equally you could question any value - other than perhaps the insurance valuation as a token "replacement" value - as there is no intention to sell the car.

I too have spent considerable time of my life both rebuilding, re-assembling, enjoying the car in the company of other enthusiasts and generally using it for what it was built for - driving. The car is effectively part of the family - perhaps a term a non-car enthusiast would not recognise with their soulless everyday transport. Every new trip brings new experiences and memories not measured in hard cash and it would be hard to replace those and future ones - plus the car - unless offset with a significant cash incentive.

Back to the "original" Ferrari 275GTB/4 which sold for over US$ 10 Million at Monterey last month. When ordered by Steve McQueen it supplied from the factory in a metallic Gold. It was then sprayed a deep maroon and used by McQueen until it was sold to a series of new owners - suffering rear end damage and then had the roof removed to make it into a "more valuable" convertible Spyder and painted yellow. The car then changed hands and was painted a form of silver grey before the next owner sent it to have the roof remade and the whole car repainted red. Rebuilt to original specification, but is this really an "original" car ?

Cheers,

Dave

Sarthe72 · Post by **Sarthe72** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:03 pm

Well, some interesting comments. As far as Heuer is concerned, I have upped the value of my E-type today to ?175,000 and the XKSS to ?250,000, the last based on the projected price of the same at the Revival sale. My insurers didn't bat an eyelid at all, knowing that the two live in a wooden garage 30 yds from the house with no alarm or serious locks - in fact they haven't even specified five lever. Now I never in my wildest dreams thought my cars would ever approach these values and that they have done so irks me enormously, taking a lot of the fun out of driving them, but I don't make the prices and can't change what is.

But I don't think that frankly this time there is a bubble to burst, as some have put it. I have written an article based on my visits to CKL, JD Classics and CMC, having looked at their investment and the throughput in their works. It is enormous, and the market, and the structure thereof, is now far more mature and well based that in 1991 when the last boom/crash occurred. The racing scene as serviced by CKL, the preparation of the car - and yes the bodywork repairs afterwards - is ongoing, and the racing scene is part of what is leading prices onwards as well as the "investment" side.

Maybe prices are in need of a correction, but I do not foresee a crash as in 1991. Over to you.

Post by **Heuer** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:45 pm

Agree totally. The 'correction' was bringing the E-Type into line with other classic cars of similar stature. I know Pete and others want the bubble to burst so the E-Type can once again become the "poor man's Ferrari" but it is simply not going to happen. For example the prices of XK's are stagnant because the buyers of today want an icon they can relate to and they can't relate to an "old man's car" but they love the E-Type, especially as Jaguar themselves use it as a benchmark. Ditto any 911 from the 1970's to the 1990's, kids just want them and their demand will drive prices upwards.

Prices of E-Type's will continue to rise, they will no longer be the preserve of the hair shirt 'enthusiast' so we should just be glad those of us who have them can enjoy them whilst we can. For the true enthusiast there will always be other Jaguar's to savour - I notice nobody whines about the value of SS100's, C-Type's, D-Type's or LWE's!

paulsco · Post by **paulsco** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:23 pm

I think these values are fuelled by the fact that interest rates are low and investors are able to make more money buying and selling property and cars than any other form of investment. As long as interest rates are low, the value of our cars will increase.
I think this is very bad for the car enthusiast. I want to use my car, but this becomes more and more difficult as the value rises. I am not so much concerned with using a valuable car as I am with having it stolen.

Paul

Post by **Heuer** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:32 pm

Good analysis. Providing you have current tmarket value insurance why would you care if it is a total loss? The value is just a number so as long as you are put back in the same position as you started with it makes no difference. My point is we need to be circumspect and make sure we are covered for loss regardless of what we might hope/wish/pray will happen to these cars in terms of value. They are just tools and there are lots of other options when the E-Type becomes unaffordable. I was out in the Elan today and I said to my wife I would sell the E-Type's before ever letting it go as it is indeed the ultimate drivers machine.

paulsco · Post by **paulsco** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:15 am

Unfortunately to me the car has more than a monetary value; I have spent several years in a cold garage cutting out metal carefully crafting new and replacing panels to create a shell that is pretty much as good as it gets.
I love THIS car and money will not replace it. I loved my old Mark 1 XR2 and believe it or not my Micra; they were just usable hacks and could be parked anywhere because their value was low. I used to do the same with my Jaguar 340, which I used every day summer and winter, but not so much now.
Perhaps it?s my fault; I get too emotionally involved.
Rising E-Type prices are like house prices; only useful if you want to sell up and get out of the market.

Paul

44DHR · Post by **44DHR** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:02 am

I see it as simply a case of supply and demand. As the whole Classic industry has matured and developed, the number of people interested has grown on a worldwide basis - irrespective of whether they can afford to buy a car - yet the number of cars remains basically finite.

Look at the new emerging wealth in various areas of the world and how they wish to buy into a now carefully crafted and developed "lifestyle image". Whether this is the cars, the availability of parts and expertise, glossy magazines or a revertion to historic motorsport - away from today's offerings which people have difficulty to relate to. We are indeed fortunate to have one of the icons of that "business".

Back to the concern of driving a high value item. In our group of friends we insure each other on our various cars - especially on our continental trips so we can swop cars. My friend called me a couple of months ago to say he had received an updated valuation on his DB6 and had to change insurers and did I still want to remain on his insurance ? This is a car he spent 6 years rebuilding himself - having bought it from a well known Aston specialist who could not undertake the work due to the high number of labour hours involved - making it uneconomic at the time. When I asked the new valuation he said it was now ?250,000. I asked if that figure concerned him and his answer was "When I become worried to drive it because of its value will be the day I sell it". That about summed it up to me. He did however bemoan the fact the new insurers had insisted on specific security measures to his garage.

regards,

Dave

PaulColeman · Post by **PaulColeman** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:01 am

Some overpriced cars, like ?190,000 Jaguar E-type 3.8s might lose 30% in value over the next five years... http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/new ... ment-tips/

Dave K · Post by **Dave K** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:19 pm

PaulColeman wrote:Some overpriced cars, like ?190,000 Jaguar E-type 3.8s might lose 30% in value over the next five years... http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/new ... ment-tips/

Also in the same article was: "KEEP: Jaguar E-Type S1. The E-type has a pan-generational appeal that will never go out of fashion. Everyone loves the big cat, which means there will always be demand. Good condition S1s are a great long termer, but tired 3.8s can be a good short-term sell."

Sarthe72 · Post by **Sarthe72** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:22 pm

If the early cars are going south, then please explain this:-

http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1961-j ... oadster-4/

Nor even the right colour interior, yet over ?300,000.

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