Wider Wheels for the S1

andyp · Post by **andyp** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:44 pm

My car is a bit heavier than yours David but equally sensitive to pressure. I run at 36psi all round but I like her just slightly skittish.

If I find time during the week I've got new dampers to go on the back. I suspect that after fitting these I'll be dropping the pressure a couple of pounds and firming up the damping for much the same overal feel.

Andy

Post by **Heuer** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:49 pm

Found an 'alternative' to Borrani alloy rim wheels: http://www.wirewheels.co.uk/turrinop.htm

Unfortunately the price is about the same as the Borrani's.

David

andyp · Post by **andyp** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:09 pm

If I was in the position to be buy a nice new set of wheels for the E it would take a lot to tempt me away from Borrani's. As I think I've said here before I have a set on one of my motorcyles that are now 33 years old. The stainless spokes are still in perfect tension, the nipples don't have a mark on them and the rims have never needed more than a dust.

If you are buying for a vehicle that you plan on keeping buying anything else just doesn't make sense.

Andy

Post by **Heuer** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:24 pm

Just dug out some old photos (2004) of my car in its lowered state with 205/65 tyres. Thought I would take a picture today with the 185 tyres and the current ride height for comparison. There does not seem to be much in it looks wise despite the extra 1.9" at the front and 1.4" at the back. The above picture of the car in the Geneva park (2001) was taken when the car was really low with a ground clearance of about 3" and no longer viable on today's roads.

Before

After

Took my wife out in it for the first time since having the Michelin tyres/revised ride height and she declared it a joy to be in - much smoother ride, far sweeter cornering.

David

Post by **Heuer** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:58 pm

To add to the library of different sizes of wheels here is a car fitted with 5.5" Daytons with 205/70 tyres. Notice the three earned 'Jaguar' spinners which are cute.

Here is a car fitted with 6.5" MWS and 205/60 tyres:

I think the steering is going to be very heavy and uncommunicative on that one and to remove the rears you would need to drop the suspension! Nice car though and just sold on eBay for ?14,250.

pmansson · Post by **pmansson** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:02 am

Just mounted one of the rear wheels. The rubber is alarmingly close to the rear fender .....
I can fit one finger (and mine are fairly narrow), and wonder if I will hit the fender edge (or inside?) when running the car at speed over uneven roads....

Before I had 6.5" Dunlop (made in India) with Pirelli 4000 in the same dimension. With them, I could fit 2 fingers with space to go).

Thankful for any input, before I drive the car....
Best,
Peder

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:18 am

The problem will a nuisance rather than disaster, at least initially, so just go out and drive the car to see what's up. If you managed to get the wheels on OK you are probably OK, or close to it. When there is a really close fit the wheels are a bear to R&R due to the tyre hitting the bodywork before the wheel hub slides onto or off the splines (assuming you have splined hubs).

Drive the car and look for tell-tale marks on the sidewall and listen for squeaking noises from the back as you go round bumpy corners especially. If the tyres are rubbing you'll see clear evidence. You'll gain some clearance by 'rolling' the wheelarch edges upwards.

Pete

pmansson · Post by **pmansson** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:38 am

Thanks for the tip and hint. I just mounted the other rear wheel, and it was very hard to mount as the fender was in the way when trying to get the wheel aligned to the splined hub. It did go through, but now the space between rubber and fender is a couple of m.m.
Yes, the cars were hand built and clearly the rear wing is closer to the middle of the car, or its wheel arch is different.

I wish Tom Homan at Longstone had warned me on this. I would have gone with a smaller Borrani, like I have on the black OTS.

I am awaiting his comments.....

pmansson · Post by **pmansson** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:26 pm

Keep the 6" Borranis, and mount 185 tyres, or keep the 205/70 tyres but mount them on 5.5" Borranis ??
I will need to sort out the implications with Longstone. Who pays for what?
And the time frame... New Borranis will be another 10 week as we are now into the Italian holidays. I can live with the old wheels, so time is less important.
OR; keep them and try them on another S1 which needs new wheels and tyres....?!?!

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:09 pm

Yup. If the gap is down to a few mm you'll get fouling as the suspension moves and the wheels probably flex slighty under duress.

A fingerwidth is usually OK but a few mm not. The point where it hits is typically at 10 o'clock on the right side rear wheel and at 2 o'clock on the left side rear wheel - i.e. where the rear arch curves downwards towards the tip of the bumper blade and passes closest to the sidewall of over-size wheels/tyres.

Pete

pmansson · Post by **pmansson** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:22 pm

That?s exactly where it is the tightest.
What about 1deg of neg camber on the rear wheels? I do that on my BMW coupes, but up front. That brings the top half of the wheels slightly inwards....

pmansson · Post by **pmansson** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:52 pm

I looked very carefully under the car. There is ample space for 6 or 6.5" wheels with the 205/70 tyres, BUT the ET has to be different to the Borranis causing me the current problem. The offset/ET is a bit extreme on the Borranis, but I doubt that they have different ET to choose from in the same size wheels. What a pity !!

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:16 pm

To be honest, your problem is very predictable with wider wheels on a short wheelbase E-type.

Sure, some get away with it, and some have lots of room outboard but have to trim the rubber bump stops. But it is common enough that I would have thought any reasonable seller of these very expensive wheels should have warned you to use standard tyre sizes or offered a trial fit or something.

I would probably go with the 185 tyres as the line of least resistance. Somebody who has geometry tables can tell you how much clearance an extra half degree or degree of negative camber would give you at that radius. It might not be enough, but especially with wider tyres I wouldn't go messing about with your geomtery anyway, just to fit tyres in on a road car. They'll wear faster on the inside edge.

I'd guess a millimetre removed from the drive shaft shims stack would give you maybe 2-3 mm extra clearance at double the 'hypotenuse' length, which I'm guessing would be roughly the ratio of distance to the contact point from the lower fulcrum pivot versus distance to the diff centreline? That might be OK for a bit of extra margin where you basically have clearance, but it's getting extremely close. But if you currently have rubbing at full bump, you'd need more than 2-3 millimetres extra clearance. Perhaps a couple of shims taken out PLUS modest rolling of the wheel arch returns would solve the problem completely?

Every car is different, so you'd have to see what worked for you.

pmansson · Post by **pmansson** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:29 pm

The RW 3991 wheel (which I have) is listed on the Borrani website, to fit all E-types with the XWX 205/70 VR14 tyre which I have on these beautiful wheels which arrived this morning.
So Borrani doesn?t know what they are talking about....!!!

Post by **Heuer** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:33 pm

Michelin specify 5", 5.5" and 6" wheels for their 185 tyres so not sure fitting them on 6.5" wheels is going to be safe or productive. You are playing a game of consequences here - fitting wide 70's style Disco wheels means removing rear bump stops, altering body work and ending up with a car that handles worse than standard. Ride will be harsher, less confidence inspiring in extremis and the weight of the steering will be a pain on the move. If you had that much trouble fitting the new wheels/tyres in the garage just think what it will be like on the side of the road if you have a puncture! And then you have the problem of where to put the wheel because it will not fit in the well especially if you have luggage.

If you are going to drive hard enough to require more rubber on the road buy a 911 although on a circular test track I doubt the difference in cornering speed will be more than 5 mph before under-steer kicks in. The biggest problem with wide wheels/tyres is the fairly low torsional rigidity of the E-Type so the designers intended the car to start sliding when cornering hard to relieve the stresses. You will be loading up the bushes, steering rack, suspension, seals, frames and axles beyond anything Jaguar specified or intended.

To be fair to Borrani the 6.5" wheels and Michelin XWX 205/70 tyres will fit an E-Type as long as it is a S3.

pmansson · Post by **pmansson** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:35 pm

The RW 3991 are 6" and again, listed on Borrani?s website to go on the E-type with 205/70 tyres.
There is ample space in the rear wheel houses. The problem is the off set or ET. My old Dunlop wheels were 6.5" and the Pirelli P4000 of the same 205/70 dimension. Lots of space between rubber and fenders. Very different ET.
Yes, my bump stops are removedsince years back.

Post by **Heuer** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:59 pm

Yes I can see you have the correct Borrani wheel reference but I wonder if the offset of the S3 cars is different from the earlier SWB cars? If so Borrani may automatically assume the 6" wheels for XWX 205/70 are intended for an S3 whilst the RW3585 5" and RW3877 5.5" are standard for the S1/2 cars with 185's. Does anyone know if the S3 has different wheel offsets as standard?

Other manufacturers such as Dunlop, Dayton and MWS may have designed their 6" wheels with the SWB cars in mind and set the ET appropriately.

e-bygum · Post by **e-bygum** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:01 pm

pmansson wrote:The RW 3991 wheel (which I have) is listed on the Borrani website, to fit all E-types with the XWX 205/70 VR14 tyre which I have on these beautiful wheels which arrived this morning.
So Borrani doesn?t know what they are talking about....!!!

XWX205/70VR14 is that diameter a typo or really what Borrani say?

pmansson · Post by **pmansson** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:00 am

Michelin XWX 205/70 VR15 to go with the RW 3991 for the E-type `61-75.
They also list the 4012 (6") and 3886 (7") to go with the above XWX.

Post by **Heuer** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:55 am

Peder

I have a friend who has Dunlop 6" wheels with XWX tyres which runs without problems and my old 6" MWS wheels with Pirelli P6000 tyres are currently on Mark's S1 and fit perfectly. It sounds as though your problem is confined to Borrani. Have you got access to another 6" wheel to do some comparative measurements?

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The 'E' Type Forum

Wider Wheels for the S1

#41

#42

#43

#44

#45

#46 Borrani 6" with XWX 205/70 VR15 on S1 FHC

#47

#48 Other rear wheel very hard to mount

#49 Solution ??

#50

#51 You are so right

#52 ET

#53

#54 Borranis fault as well as Longstone

#55

#56 Not 6.5"

#57

#58 Re: Borranis fault as well as Longstone

#59 Borrani says

#60