Marston Radiator

[Heuer]

[SEJohnson95]

It is helpful in that it appears to show that the numbers did not track with the chassis numbers, which seems odd that early in the production. But if accurate, it's another "fact" debunked. Thanks. (No need for the cute little icon).

They were numbered sequentially down the line as they rolled off, hence not according to chassis number. Still trying to work out what number to put on 860927's tag. Andrew, what did you put on 860897?

[64etype]

Yes, I misspoke...should have said total numbers. David's note under the photo indicates the total number of cars built (rolled off the line) at about 457 cars. The radiator number is 627. Doesn't add up.

[SEJohnson95]

I'm sure I've seen that written on this forum before somewhere. Forgive me but I lack an encyclopaedic knowledge of the website, that and coupled with my mind swimming with all aspects of degree level chemistry is clouding my judgement somewhat David I'm sure you wrote that post.

[bopperd]

For the record, the Marston radiator in 875343 remains in the car, and has never been removed. It is still functional, and holds pressure.

Dave

[64etype]

I take it you are the original owner of 875343?

[Heuer]

Simon

The Marston radiators were hugely expensive to develop and produce (I read somewhere they each represented 10% of product value of the car); the serial numbers were there for the manufacturers stock control benefit and of little interest to Jaguar. The design made them prone to shipping and handling damage whilst the complex construction meant they were delivered in small batches. As product arrived at the Factory the radiators were unpacked, checked and racked until required for production. No one cared about their serial numbers and they were stored as they came out of the crates - may have started with the higher numbers or not, simply by chance. Ditto when it came to moving stock to the line.

Despite all of this the Marston radiators serial numbers do seem to broadly correlate with car numbers with a variance of about +/-200. Hardly surprising given Marston deftly matched their production to that of Jaguar - an early use of the JIT (Just In Time) principle of stock supply pioneered by the Japanese. At the close of 3.8 production Jaguar would have been left with a supply (200-300?) of Marston radiators. Some of these will have been over orders, some reconditioned units returned from Marston Excelsior. These would have been passed to the Spares Department to fulfil warranty and service replacement requests. By 1965 the further supply of Marston radiators became impossible so Jaguar re-engineered the 4.2 brass radiator to fit the 3.8, an easy modification.

You have to remember the Marston radiator used in the E-Type was one of the first 'cross-flow' designs and, as with any innovation, it comes with complexity and price. Within three years all the other radiator manufacturers had produced their own cross-flow designs which were of simpler construction with replaceable cores (better in service support).

[PeterCrespin]

You're entitled to your opinion, but the wise guy attitude is unprofessional, unbecoming and disappointing.

What can I say Eric? E-types are a hobby not a profession, I'm uncouth and I've been a disappointment since I emerged with a squashed nose after a protracted labour and Nurse Corson the midwife told my mother "Ooh - he looks like a little pig!"

Non... rien de rien
Non... je ne regrette rien
Ni le bien, qu'on m'a fait
Ni le mal, tout ?a m'est bien ?gale....

Onward and upward. Per ardua ad Asda

[SEJohnson95]

per ardua ad alta Our university's motto!

[Heuer]

Onward and upward. Per ardua ad Asda

It seems Pete's motto is "It is difficult to get to Asda" :? He could try Walmart which is much the same thing, but cheaper.

....... the wise guy attitude is unprofessional, unbecoming and disappointing.

But always welcome and amusing. 8)

(No need for the cute little icon).

Actually it is an emoticon - you have to use them occasionally or they go rusty or cry or something. Definitely there somewhere in the instructions ......

[64etype]

Onward and upward. Per ardua ad Asda

It seems Pete's motto is "It is difficult to get to Asda" :? He could try Walmart which is much the same thing, but cheaper.

....... the wise guy attitude is unprofessional, unbecoming and disappointing.

But always welcome and amusing. 8)

(No need for the cute little icon).

Actually it is an emoticon - you have to use them occasionally or they go rusty or cry or something. Definitely there somewhere in the instructions ......

I doubt the Little Sparrow intended for her lyrics to be used as an excuse or a defense for bad behavior....a variation of the Bart Simpson defense.

I purposely avoid using those cute little icons because more often than not they are a thinly disguised form of disparaging (flaming) someone ...a practice that is discouraged on most websites and by most administrators. If the thought behind the icons was written down, one would hope the author would think twice about using them.

Enough about that. David, I wonder where you sourced that very detailed explanation as to how the Marston radiators where handled on the production line back in the day?

By the way, in an earlier post there was a discussion of the seemingly "original" radiator in S/N 875343. In the interim I looked up that S/N on XKE Data. As of 2006 it was on it's fourth owner, who was trying to track down the first two owners. It appears from the accompanying photo that the car had been repainted at some point. Original example???

[Heuer]

I wonder where you sourced that very detailed explanation as to how the Marston radiators where handled on the production line back in the day?

Wonder no more my little friend! Whenever I can I speak to people who worked at 'The Jag' in period. There are quite a lot of knowledgeable people around who are willing to share their memories. I have spent time talking to Jim Eastwick, Peter Wilson, Peter Jones, Norman Dewis, Eric Suffolk, Mick Turley, Brian Martin, Stan Swann and Frank Philpott amongst many others. Two things stand out - Jaguar was run in a professional and disciplined manner (it was not the small scale shambles some people imagine) and everyone looked up to Sir William out of respect and fear.

A story I heard recently: "Sir William was walking through the 'Blue Room' (the Factory name for the trim shop) one morning. Everyone immediately stood up next to their work station and stared straight ahead. They were expected to wear clean overalls and their surroundings had to be clear and tidy. He stopped next to a newly trimmed Mk 10 rear seat, the product of many hours work, and inspected it from all sides. Without saying a word he opened up a pocket knife and slashed a large X in the leather. Folded his knife and walked out. Lesson learnt. And no one ever spoke to Sir William without being asked to do so".

The radiators were handled just like all other incoming components because everything was run to order and by the book - breaking that order brought either the wrath of Management or the Unions. The employees were on piece work so no one was interested in bucking the system or getting things wrong. That slashed Mk10 seat cost the guy a days pay.

[64etype]

Wonder no more my little friend!

Thank you for the information my condescending friend. Interesting second hand anecdotes.

[Heuer]

[andrewh]

Wonder no more my little friend!

Thank you for the information my condescending friend. Interesting second hand anecdotes.

Err.....did I miss something? Is this a question of deflated egos?

[bopperd]

Eric,
With regard to the authenticity of 875343 and XKE Data: I'm not sure how you got four owners out of that. According to JDHT, The original owner was a Mr. Godley, who cannot be traced. The second was a lawyer named Thompson, again untraceable. The third is Ray McPhail, the current owner, who has had the car for 49 years. I count three. In any case the number of owners is irrelevant. It has no bearing on the current state of the car, or any car.
Have you seen this car? I have. I drove two hours to Sudbury today and spent four hours with it and Ray. He has graciously allowed me to remove and document parts from the car that I am certain are original. He is perfectly aware that it was repainted by a previous owner. He also acknowledges that there are parts that have been replaced, and has maintained an exhaustive log book.
I would suggest that you can paint a car a different colour without replacing the radiator.
Personally, I am thankful to have this car relatively nearby to examine. It has taught me a great deal, and Ray has learned a few things about it along the way. I thought this is why we are all here.

[MarekH]

In the interim I looked up that S/N on XKE Data. As of 2006 it was on it's fourth owner, who was trying to track down the first two owners.

Dear Eric,

I don't think quoting back to XKEdata as your primary source is particularly useful in this context:- we have no idea who posted the text or pictures, whether they are current pictures or perhaps several years old and unless the dataplate is clearly visible, whether they are even of the same car as we think they are.

To put things in context, you wouldn't suggest that the moon landings were a fake on the basis of http://pigeonsnest.co.uk/stuff/nasa-fak ... nding.html would you now?


The only real use of XKEdata is in a group context where you can look at fifty cars and see common features between them. On a balance of probabilities, those are Jaguar features as opposed to fifty separate individuals coincidentally modifying their cars the same way. Even then, you could easily be lulled into believing that closed headlamp cars or conversions from left to right hand drive are authentic factory features when factory documentation suggests they are not.

kind regards
Marek

[Heuer]

This is #890870, one of the very last 3.8's to roll off the production line in August 1964:


This is #881735. August 1964:


This is #890574, May 1964


This #881640, 6th May 1964:

This is #881373, April 1964:

This is #896424, April 1964:


This #890236, April 1964:


Case closed I would say!

[64etype]

Eric,
With regard to the authenticity of 875343 and XKE Data: I'm not sure how you got four owners out of that. According to JDHT, The original owner was a Mr. Godley, who cannot be traced. The second was a lawyer named Thompson, again untraceable. The third is Ray McPhail, the current owner, who has had the car for 49 years. I count three. In any case the number of owners is irrelevant. It has no bearing on the current state of the car, or any car.
Have you seen this car? I have. I drove two hours to Sudbury today and spent four hours with it and Ray. He has graciously allowed me to remove and document parts from the car that I am certain are original. He is perfectly aware that it was repainted by a previous owner. He also acknowledges that there are parts that have been replaced, and has maintained an exhaustive log book.
I would suggest that you can paint a car a different colour without replacing the radiator.
Personally, I am thankful to have this car relatively nearby to examine. It has taught me a great deal, and Ray has learned a few things about it along the way. I thought this is why we are all here.

Mr. McPhail bought it from a dealer. That makes four. Further the implication from this message string was that you were the owner...five. In fact I asked if you were the original owner.

I am simply pointing out that the radiator could have been changed in the years prior to Ray's ownership. After all, they did have issues with them through the years, which is why so few remain. Unknown and untraceable ownership does have implications regarding originality. I find it interesting that in the past I have pointed to one or two 1964 cars offered at auction, and one owned by Jay Leno that are purported to be documented original examples....that have brass cased radiators. The "minds made up crowd" immediately attack the claim. Why? Because their minds are made up. So it's OK to question the ownership string in those cases, but not in this one?

I mentioned the paint simply to point out that this is not a truly unmolested original survivor....its history is not traceable. Don't make more of this than it is.

[64etype]

Case closed I would say!

Of course you would say that David. You're a member of the minds made up contingent. And they always get their skivvies in a wad when I mention something that doesn't agree with conventional wisdom.

Without even making an effort I have a list of eight or nine cars with brass radiators. Almost all of them are '64s. The Leno car being one of them, and one sold at auction last year in France being another. These two are purported to be truly unmolested with the ownership trail defined. Can the owner and maintenance history of every one of the cars in your photos be traced? (Maybe the red car, but there are some oddities about that one as well). Can you say with zero doubt that those radiators weren't changed out over the years?

I appreciate your contributions to my investigation, which will continue unabated in spite of the flak from the minds made up contingent. I'll report and follow up on findings (such as the one in Mr. Skilleter's book) when I run across them. The case is not closed. Y'all need to calm down.