Flat Floor experts!

[andrewh]

I am off to see an early 3.8 Flat Floor with a view to purchase and whilst I am familiar with the matching numbers and where to look etc, I am not overly aware of the differences in the early roadsters from the later cars. Of course, I know about the flat floor itself, and later the dished floor and the bulkhead cut out behind the seat, but not sure about the other body differences on the car. I know the FHC was totally remodelled after the very early cars but is the FF materially different to the later cars? I also know about recessed louvres in the bonnet and different J post screen chromes etc. What I don't know is about doors, inner panels around the rear light aperture and bulkhead changes. If there are any experts out there, this is your chance! I am trying to check the car is what it purports to be, its not on the road and been out of circulation for many years. All help will be much appreciated.

[Heuer]

Flat floors are not rare so don't pay a premium for one as they merely add to the inconvenience of driving an E-Type. Basically they have little to offer other than bragging rights in the Pub. The real defining moment was with the change from the flat bulkheads to scalloped in May 1962. As Jaguar modified the car on a weekly basis and offered to retro fit dished floors it is a nightmare to figure out what is factory original. You best bet is to study the Factory Fit thread very carefully, several times, and then get the Spare Parts Bulletins and Service Bulletins and really memorise them.

Sorry to sound negative but there are the first 500 OBL's and then the rest.

[Geoff Green]

Yes, flat floor cars after the first 500 do change weekly. Some things to see are recessed area behind the seats, floors, bonnet, etc. depending on where it falls in month (week) of production. For instance bonnets changed from welded inner panel flanges to adhesive attached flanges with the replacement of the six or so being replaced as they worked out the manufacture with louvers being welded in to punched in occurring last. However most bonnets on 3.8s have been replaced by now so there may not be anything there to look at.

The other thing to keep in mind with changes is that they made far more LHD cars than RHD and more open cars than coupes. This means the 25th RHD coupe will be built to the same specification as the 2756th LHD open car. Number count kay be off as I do not have my build serial number chart by month handy. Yet you get the idea a low number RHD coupe may not be as early as thought.

The factory fit post is where you need to look along with XK Data if you have the serial number.

Hope it catches your fancy,

Geoff

[Dawnpatrol]

Adding to already mentioned, boot hinges!
Very early = single thin.
Later OS locks and most flat floor twin thin ones per side then single fat one.
Not at home at moment to check cut in/out etc.
A lot depends on how close to to finish of OBL the car is, and RHD or LHD as already mentioned.
The early features ran out earlier on LHD than RHD by date of manufacture.
But this mainly relates to parts bolted on, the tubs where the same by date of build but as mentioned already, the greater numbers of LHD means there could be big differences between small batches of RHD with consecutive chassis numbers.
As long as you've not got a series 2 pedal box and you have holes each side for the Kelsey Hayes most features are a matter of opinion. There is always the example to disprove the theory in my experience.
I'd be more interested in the continuous history and ownership trail etc, work done over the years.

Good luck with the viewing!

[Dave K]

David has a bee in his bonnet about flat floors, I sometimes think there must be a bit green in his eye. Basically the only difference between the first 500 and my car is the outside bonnet locks.

There are the first 500 then the rest of the flat floors and then the rest are just standard issue E-Types, that's pretty obvious because people are prepared to pay more for them than the rest.

A couple of things to look out for, on the chrome door capping there is a crease running along the bottom about 1/8" of an inch from the bottom, these aren't made any more so if the car hasn't got them you probably won't be able to get them. The thin dash top with the white brittle plastic screen vents also not now available. Doubtful you will be able to see them but if you get the chance to have a look under the dash make sure they aren't broken.
Of course there is the pressed in bonnet louvres, one wing is shorter than the other. The doors are different to later cars and you can't get the Martin Robey doors skins to fit very easily and the chrome door capping won't sit correctly.
There will likely be panels around the inner rear wheel arches that are pop riveted into position and not spot welded.
Already mentioned is the straight bulkhead section behind the seats.

The carb set up is virtually the same as the XK150 S and the carb linkage is different to all the rest of the E-Types.
The drive shafts are the thicker type I think with the brass pins sticking out the ends.
There is a lot more but without looking at my car I just can't remember, my car is in storage so I can't just pop and look.

Dave

[andrewh]

thanks chaps, for the usual great input. David, yes I know what you mean about Flat floors not adding to the usability of the 3.8s, I previously owned 850320 and found it almost impossible to get comfortable, and I was 15 years younger then! However, I am set on a genuine UK car, and don't mind if its to be a OBL, FF or later 3.8 car. I don't distinguish between FF and later cars, other than the later cars are better to drive. OBLs are as you say a different bag. Since there were only approximately 700/?? RHD 3.8 OTS cars, they are a rare thing. This car has been off the road since the 70s I gather. I will check out the stuff mentioned above, to add to my existing knowledge. Are the welded in bonnet louvres only on OBLs?

[Heuer]

No Dave, not envious of a flat floor car - had many opportunities to buy but each time I drove one I found it appalling. I know you don't drive your car much but I am out in mine as much as possible so drive-ability is of the highest importance. The car I am jealous of is Angus's 1966 FHC as it is totally original with only service parts being replaced - truly what it was like to drive an E-Type as Jaguar intended it to be in period.

Andrew - the welded in louvres continued until late 1961, we have no actual date. Throttle linkage change did not coincide with the change to dished floors. The boot supports were only different on the first 500 which had two versions. Later cars had the thicker common version. You need Porter's book to track the weekly changes. Whatever you end up with be prepared for the interminable "that's not right" comments

There were 2,615 flat floor cars, 17% or one sixth of total 3.8 production so they are not that rare. In fact over a third of RHD OTS's were flat floors.

[andrewh]

Well I know about the Armchair experts, I have plenty of that on the early Range Rovers, but what you really discover is that when they were manufactured there was a lot of variation, particularly at cross over stages. Much like Jaguar surprise surprise. I will see what this old motor is like and make a decision on its purchase, but since the Lions share of my enjoyment comes from the rebuild I cannot see me buying a car that I think needs a total rebuild and the owner thinks is perfect. We will see. I think it may be a welded in louvre car , I will have to find out more. thanks chaps.

[lundabo]

Have you looked at the JCNA originality guide for the Series 1? It is functionally a compendium of all of the resources chronicling the changes to the Series 1, at least those coming to NA.

http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/e-type1.pdf
http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0007.html

It can be a useful starting place, IMO.

As for David's comments on the FF cars, it is mostly correct/true, but taken to its logical conclusion, why not get a Series III? It is the most comfortable and livable of all e-types! I kid (somewhat), but make the point only to underscore that each car has its own merits. I personally don't really fit in my '61, but were I 5'9" or smaller, I think the flat floors and lack of scallops would mean little and I would enjoy the car just as much as a '65 Series 1.5 with covered headlights, scallops, etc. After all, compared to most other British sports cars of the era, even the early e-types were pretty luxurious.


Good luck.

[andrewh]

thanks Bill. Yes what you say is of course most sensible. Flat Floors were a design oversight, out right later on in production , as were OBLs, they rattled like hell, and subsequently designed out. So rarity is all that is driving this particular price structure. Maybe Austin Allegros with square steering wheels are worth more than later ones where they put a proper steering wheel on?

I was asked a while back by a friend who was new to E types, although very knowledgeable about Classic Cars and owned various Bentleys, Lagondas and a Lister Jaguar. He wondered whether I could find a FF for him to use. I explained that a FF was not really the best to drive, but he would have none of it, it must be a FF. I believe he has bought one now. So there you go, strange old world.

[Doug Buchan]

Andrew,
The floors and the rear bulkhead are the obvious things. I would look for the provisions to mount the OBL receiver latches on the inner sills near the build plate and forward of the voltage reg. Also, some early FF's had bump stops on the front bulkhead near the cowl. Genuine early cars had two piece door skins and of course arm rest bosses should be absent. FHC door skins were leaded at the top where ots's had the dished finisher which hid the spot welds. Lots of other odds and ends depending upon the build date proximity to the outside lockers. A three post throttle linkage on the vacuum balance pipe and butlers license lights are other obvious features as well. On the pedal box, see if the outer bushing is the eccentric brass type. Early taillight apertures were open to the boot.
Regards, Doug

[andrewh]

thanks Doug, thats great information. I had heard doors were different around the door skins but had not worked out the exact details. I will make a note of that. I also believe that there is no strengthening gusset in the rear bulkhead on the 45 degree angle panel?

[PeterCrespin]

... I would enjoy the car just as much as a '65 Series 1.5 with covered headlights, scallops, etc. Good luck.

now that would be a rare car Bill