How much racket is normal?

[keithmac]

So the nightmare continues....
Is it normal for the engine to make audible clacking/ticking noises from the head area while driving? I am still a " new " E-Type driver.
I have been told the series 1.5 4.2 a noisy valve train. Seems to be from the head/valve train area. Engine just rebuilt , head rebuilt and checked twice by E-type restorer. He says its normal. 300 miles on the engine.
It did ingest a liter of coolant on start up due to a warped manifold and this is my worry. ( since machined flat and gasket sealed).
160 psi on all cylinders. 10 degrees advance, flame thrower distributor/coil, resister wires ( non resister plug caps ) BR5es plugs. Head and intake re-torqued. Seems quite the first few minutes after start up
Not to mention the spongy brakes ( bled 7 times three ways- new master ,servo( disassembled and checked) front rotors, lines, caliper seals, pads and new piston bolts )
And the rebuilt gear box pops out in third three or four times a drive( not the rubber boot pulling on it ) because of shaking.
I would really like to drive this car especially after reading how much members like their cars ( and after two years of blood sweat and tears )

Sigh

[Gerry]

Hi Keith sorry to see you are still having problems,the clack clack noise is serious stuff,did your re-builder install a hold down kit?Sounds like one of cams is smashing into a raised tappet guide?
Regards Gerry 62 ots Ontario Canada

[abowie]

Spongy Brakes:
Air in the brakes is common. By far the best way to bleed them is with positive pressure using a big syringe. See http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php ... eed#p44643 Persistence will fix this problem.

Gearbox popping out:
Gearbox popping out of gear is as you have said often trim interfering with the throw. To exclude this remove the cover in the floor that goes over the top of the gearbox and drive the car. If it is definitely not this then make sure that the linkage bushes aren't excessively worn and that the linkage has been assembled correctly. Have a read through http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14548. This was about a Moss box but there are pictures that you can compare to. After this I believe it is possible to adjust the shifter mechanism spring tension with the bolt that sticks out of the back of the case below and to the right of the shifter. We always get our gearboxes professionally rebuilt and I have no experience with doing this myself. This is a problem that whoever rebuilt and reinstalled the box needs to address.

Engine noise:
My first E Type after rebuild had one noisy tappet. I could hear it while driving the car. When we fixed it, the gap was 11 thou and should have been 6 thou. So poorly adjusted tappets will make noise.

Having said that I have rebuilt a number of E Type engines since. More than 10, and 3 for my own cars. I shimmed all of the heads on these cars myself. They are all quiet. So I do not agree with whoever told you that XK engines are intrinsically noisy.

Before you do anything you can listen to the noises, using a big screwdriver to your ear to locate the source of the noise. This is a surprisingly accurate method and will allow you to identify exactly where in the head the noise is coming from. It is always possible your noise isn't coning from the head at all. Water pump, alternator and the fan belt tensioner can all be culprits, as can something badly positioned hitting the fan belt or pulleys.

My approach to your car would be firstly, to tighten up the timing chain. It is surprising how much noise a loose chain can make and how "bad" that noise can be. I know someone who ended up stripping a whole engine chasing a noise that turned out to be a loose timing chain. 300 miles is exactly the point at which the chain can have bedded in enough to loosen a bit.

Then I would check all the valve clearances yourself. If they are not within one thou of correct this should be rectified.

If this doesn't fix the noise and the noise is definitely from the valve train then the next potential culprit would be that the tappet buckets are loose in their bores. An XK head rebuild must involve re-cutting the bucket bores and replacing the buckets. We routinely use oversize (1.4") long skirt buckets with the clearance cut to exactly 0.5 thou. We use buckets from XKs Unlimited because our machinist says they are very consistent in diameter.

Other possibilities after that include looseness of the tappet guides in the head. We routinely fit hold-down kits to both inlet and exhaust sides. If this hasn't been done to your head it should be.

After that, you are left with the camshaft (damaged lobes, bearing problems) and oil starvation to the valve train.

Lobes can be inspected for witness marks suggesting wear or damage etc. Cam bearings rarely cause trouble in my experience but it is possible to bend a camshaft if you're a gorilla so that would be worth checking for completeness. The oil supply to the valve train comes via the pipe at the back of the engine. If you reuse your old one it needs to be thoroughly cleaned. If someone has fitted a braided line get rid of it and refit the original. Some braided lines we have used are made up from brake fittings and don't provide adequate flow which will make the whole valve train noisy.

Bottom line:
We restore cars and charge people a lot of money for doing it. If the customer isn't happy with something we fix it. So should your restorer.

Handing a customer over a car with bad brakes is dangerous and reflects poorly on your restorer.

The gearbox issue is annoying but should be a relatively easy fix.

XK engines are NOT intrinsically noisy if they are built correctly by someone who knows how to do it properly.

[keithmac]

Hello Andrew and Gerry
Outstanding advice !
Brakes:
I have used the syringe method twice as prescribed plus the pump pedal plus the gunson power bleed
but will try again ( bleed number 8 ) silcon dot 5 FYI ,in a clean new system

Gearbox: Ha ! I know the thackery washer is on the OUTSIDE not where it should be on the inside, i will fix !!

Head: been using the screw driver technique for years for engine noise, works well!, Biggest noise is #2 intake, but the other intakes are not quite either, but tell me Andrew , how can I check cam follower fit and tappet guide for looseness? There are hold downs on the exhaust tappet guides but not the intakes ( where most of the noise is )
Also I have used stat o seals on the oil feed pipe to the head which are slightly thicker than the original washers and may reduce oil low if the feed holes are shifted. the pipe is the original , so I will remove it ,clean it internally and check for free flow.
I will check/adjust the timing chain also

Again , great advice
thanks,
Keith

[abowie]

tell me Andrew , how can I check cam follower fit and tappet guide for looseness?

The buckets wear at the top and bottom producing a slight barrel shape. I think that this has to do with the way the cam lobe pushes off centre when it hits the top of the follower so that it spins. I don't think that the oiling of the cams was ever brilliant either and if maintenance was neglected it is a place susceptible to damage.

You don't need much wear to produce noise. The guide also wears, so just putting in a new set of standard sized buckets, especially short skirt ones, doesn't guarantee no noise. This is why we recut all the guides oversized and use long skirt tappets.

You could try a mic on your buckets if they are old. Visually the bucket should spin smoothly with firm finger pressure and there should be no perceptible movement laterally. I only really have experience of the fit and feel when building the heads (the boys let me do all of them) but I can tell you that they are a very positive fit.

A loose guide can be tricky to spot because it may be quite firm with the engine cold, but start to move when the head is hot under the constant pounding from the cam lobe. Witness marks are an obvious thing to look for. Our machinist is very cautious and he replaces any guides that he doesn't like the look of. I think that he puts a sized mandrel into the guides and rocks them, but I'm not sure.

We still put the hold downs on both inlet and exhaust, even though a lot of people only worry about the exhaust side ones. As much as anything I think that the guys have recognised over 30 years or so that it is easier to do a few extra things than have to deal with an unhappy customer with a noise in a motor.

[keithmac]

Thanks for your help and advice Andrew
Will do .Looks like I have some work to Do !
Just bled the brakes again. Eight time.This time by a professional. Still a soft pedal. He suggests I replace the new master.
So ad that to the list !
Cheers
Keith

[abowie]

That's a bugger about the brakes. I guess that if I'd had 8 goes without success I'd be looking at starting to replace components too although it's hard to be absolutely sure where to start. I suppose the master is as good a spot as any...

I had a chat to my machinist about loose tappet guides.

He said that apart from looking for witness marks the other thing you can do is measure the height of the top of the guide relative to a fixed point on the head. A loose guide may be lifted up. He did also say that loose guides are more common on the exhaust side.

He thinks that if you have noise coming from the guide/bucket area it is more likely that you have excessive clearance/wear in the bucket bores. Either due to incorrect machining or because the bucket has just been replaced without machining the guide.

It's hard enough to diagnose engine noises when you're standing next to the car, never mind half a world away but I hope this provides food for thought. XK engines are not intrinsically noisy. Old worn XK engines with worn heads can be, but so are old worn engines of any other type as well.

[keithmac]

Again, Thank for tracking down even more info to help me find a solution to this.
There was a point where one begins to wonder about the expensive foolishness of following a boyhood dream of owning an E-type , spending a whack of dough, investing around 500 hours and two years of spare time. EVERTHING has been rebuilt but the body,. Countless hours reading ,diagnose , repair , rebuild, adjust , buying more tools , problem solving ( knowing I am far from an expert )thousands more in parts. Only to be stymied by problems that appear to dead end. new Parts that dont fit , new parts that don't work, experts that aren't.....
I will prevail
Your advice is appreciated.
Keith

[abowie]

Countless hours reading ,diagnose , repair , rebuild, adjust , buying more tools , problem solving ( knowing I am far from an expert )thousands more in parts. Only to be stymied by problems that appear to dead end. new Parts that dont fit , new parts that don't work, experts that aren't.....

Welcome to classic car restoration. All problems are soluble, and as you say persistence is the key.

I'm still chasing down the final few niggles on both my 4.2 FHC (owned 5 years and mechanically ratty when purchased) and my 3.8 roadster (owned 7 years, full resto by me), and my current project hasn't even seen the road yet. I knew nothing about E Types when I bought my first one around 10 years ago but every job teaches you a little bit.

This will cheer you up. This is 889457 before restoration started.



I wouldn't give up on your head noises. It is possible to fix them, you just need to work out what your engine builder hasn't done properly. There are a limited number of things that could be causing them and your worst scenario involves taking the head off and correcting machining errors which is not a terrible job.