LED headlights

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mtnjag
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#1 LED headlights

Post by mtnjag » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:03 am

Anyone tried these LED headlights? No heat sink out the back. Wondering if they’ll fit?

https://vintagecarleds.com/
Layne
Car #876005, 62 OTS

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#2 Re: LED headlights

Post by mtnjag » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:45 am

They have responded back to me tonight that their VCm3 Bulbs will fit my Hellas and it would be the way to go. Interestingly they are at full brightness at 7.4volts with very low amp draw. Ill be ckg with them via phone next week. Perhaps eliminate the need for headlight relays?
Layne
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#3 Re: LED headlights

Post by MarekH » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:27 am

If they are designed to max out at 7.4v then maintaining a high voltage via headlight relays does indeed bring nothing to the party.

But that means that the opposite must also true if above 7.4v. The excess voltage of 12-14v minus 7.4v, multiplied by the current draw, has to be disspitated as heat somewhere.

kind regards
Marek

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#4 Re: LED headlights

Post by mtnjag » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:06 pm

Perhaps I misunderstand your comment or you misinterpreted mine. And please understand I am not an EE so not expert. Only reading descriptions. But sounds interesting, worth investigation.

I meant that if they do not need a full 12v to attain full brightness, and they do not have a high amp draw through the switches,
then relays are NOT needed to provide full voltage or to relieve the switches of the high amp load. The standard circuit will be acceptable.

Edit: Re-read your post and i do see you agree with elimination of relay requirement but question where does the heat go. From what they say, it's handled through a new design. I don’t know. I’ll be talking to them on Monday. An application search on their website for complete headlamps only shows Etypes back to ‘69. More room in the uncovered headlights?

Here’s a partial cut and paste:

Due to high demand for a smaller more compact LED headlight for tight fitting applications we’re proud to introduce the all new, completely re-engineered VCm3000. We are very excited to introduce this new version of our previous VCm35, as we have been able to completely eliminate the fan and other compromises from our outgoing model.

Additionally, our new model will now operate all the way down to 7.3V at full brightness and down to 6.3V at 60% brightness. This will allow nearly every vehicle to enjoy the benefits of our Vintage Car LED headlights!
Last edited by mtnjag on Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Layne
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#5 Re: LED headlights

Post by MarekH » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:05 pm

Power equals volts multiplied by amps.

If the car voltage is 13.3volts and the fan will work from 7.3volts, then the extra 6volts have to dropped somewhere. The circuit inside the LED assembly has to have some sort of regulator inside it as any voltage above 7.3v will just cause the bulb to burn out. If, for argument's sake, it pulls 1amp, then that's 7.3watts dissipated by the bulb to make it light fully and a further 6watts wasted as heat.

All you know is that the assembly has no fan, so this heat wattage has to be safely conducted out without overheating anything. Some of the 7.3watts is also heat - not 100% of the energy put into the LED bulb itself manifests itself as light.

In an ideal world, you'd only want to supply this bulb with no more than 7.3volts. The car alternator puts out 14 to 14.4volts. There will be some loss in the wiring, but expect it to operate from just over 13 volts.

A clever strategy to minimise heat waste would be to run the headlights in series with each other, but I suspect that may not be possible.

kind regards
Marek

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#6 Re: LED headlights

Post by mtnjag » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:53 pm

Your knowledge in this area is beyond mine and i won’t challenge what your saying on the function of the LEDs. However, based on other conversations here the headlights are not receiving 12volts, which is one of the purposes of relays. Along with taking load off the switches. I have not tested the voltage in my headlights.

As far as heat goes would it be greater than the H4 halogen bulbs?

This company appears to be very responsive to communication. They responded twice to me last night up to 7:30 i believe. You understand the technology, Using these bulbs may enable LED to be used without mods and without great expense.

Perhaps you could communicate directly with them and explain what is going on with the bulbs here in the forum?
Layne
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#7 Re: LED headlights

Post by Gfhug » Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:10 pm

Layne, what is the legal situation regarding led instead of incandescent bulbs? Here in the UK changing headlight bulbs can invalidate the road worthiness.
I’ve Philips x-treme halogen in my S2 and they give very good light. Not sure how you can fit in your car but worth considering? Combined with the relay you’ll get decent light and how often do you drive in the dark?

Good luck

Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration

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#8 Re: LED headlights

Post by mtnjag » Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:16 pm

No inspections here in Calif so I see no legal problems unless way too bright or mis-aimed, blinding other drivers.

I was looking at these as a bulb replacement for the Halogen H4's to cut down on the amp draw through he wires and switches. Even with std sealed beams it would be nice to cut down on the amps through the switches. That was I can avoid relays.
I am running an alternator so not a problem there.

Not much night driving but I usually drive with headlights on during the day as a visibility enhancer. With all the damn SUV and 4x4 4 door monster pickups over here visibility is a problem so I want to let everyone know I'm here.
Layne
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#9 Re: LED headlights

Post by Tbob » Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:23 pm

FWIW, I installed these in a 7” headlight bucket on my 1973 Datsun 240Z. They fit in the bucket with no modifications. Amazing light pattern, bright, nice color temp, low current draw, low heat, no big heat sink out the back, compact design. If I hadn’t already done the relay conversion on the E type, they’d be on that car too.

https://autoandtrucklighting.com/produc ... adlamp-led
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#10 Re: LED headlights

Post by mtnjag » Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:31 pm

I'll check them out. But my understanding from postings here is that a full 12v is not supplied to the lights through the stock wiring. These are listed as 12-24v.

Also a set of the VintageCarLED bulbs, if they worked in spacing is $119, not $282, and they run full at down to 7.3v. As you see above HEAT is the question??

Do you know does the Z have more depth than the S1 Etypes in the covered lights headlamp bucket?
I think the space is opened up in the 69.
Layne
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#11 Re: LED headlights

Post by cactusman » Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:01 pm

There was an article in a recent MGOC magazine suggesting LED lights are legal in cars first used before April 1st 1986 (I think) ...so long as they don't dazzle.....apparent the DVSA issued some sort of clarification document regarding the legality oor otherwise of LED and HID bulbs as retrofit modifications to older cars. For cars first used after 1/4/86 it is now not legal to convert halogen headlamps to either LED or HID....instant MoT failure...although there still seems to be ongoing debate between classic car owners and the DVSA....watch this space....

As far as the 7.3 volts vs 12 volts and the dissipation of the heat produced...the above maths work if the LED regulator is a linear regulator providing a pure DC current source for the LED element....however I would strongly suspect the bulb uses some sort of switching regulator and these are more energy efficient....the LED is pulsed on and off at extremely high frequency such that the mean LED current and brightness are not exceeded. While the LED is off the dissipation is essentially near zero...hence less heat is generated and thus a smaller heat sink is needed...
Julian the E-type man
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1966 MGB....fab little car too

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#12 Re: LED headlights

Post by MarekH » Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:03 pm

I'm sure they'll be more energy efficient and produce less heat than a halogen bulb. Any regulator making them run will dissipate some heat, as will the bulbs themselves. They are obviously confident it's an improvement over their previous offering if this one needs no fan.

kind regards
Marek

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#13 Re: LED headlights

Post by cactusman » Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:33 am

Indeed yes....any regulator dissipates some heat but a switching type will dissipate less for the same energy delivered to the load...in this case the LED element...so long as it is well designed. All domestic LED lamps for.mains use employ switching regulators of one form of another...
Julian the E-type man
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#14 Re: LED headlights

Post by Heuer » Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:58 am

Very difficult to find any LED headlamps (or bulbs) that will fit into the S1 sloped buckets. They are also illegal in the UK: https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/ ... in-the-uk/

"Please note that since January 2021, the MOT Inspection manual has been updated to include LED bulbs.

Section 4.1.4 now states the following:

“Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.”

This is a brand new update that seems to only focus on headlights.

There are no mentions to fail other LED bulbs such as brake lights, tail lights or reversing lights."


In the US the legislation varies from state to state so you need to check locally.
David Jones
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#15 Re: LED headlights

Post by mtnjag » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:15 pm

Yes understand your concerns, mine too.
The fit problem is what these bulbs seem to address since there is no large sink or fan involved. They do look to have a little more length from the mounting flange to the rear of the bulb but don’t know how much yet.

Also they have full output on less than 12v which is attractive since that and the low amp draw would, I think, eliminate the need for headlight relays.

LED headlights are everywhere here in California and elsewhere in the US with DOT approval, or without for that matter. Few states even have inspections. Doesn’t really appear to be a problem although some states may limit their use, don’t know and am not concerned as it appears to be a non-issue here and elsewhere.

With the bulbs replacing my H4 halogen bulbs in my current Hella lamps a period type look can be maintained, or doing a complete change to their full lamp assemblies also give the Hella/Cibie look. Also cost for bulb only replacement is $119pr, quite economical.

But of course it all hinges on are these compact bulbs small enough to fit?
They recommended them in an email but i have not had a chance to talk to them and get some dimensions. I will be doing so.

Can someone tell me, how much MORE room do i have behind my current H4 halogen bulbs to the back of the bucket?
I can pull them and check of course but if someone knows it would save some time and frustration with those little tiny mounting ring screws!

Thanks
Layne
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#16 Re: LED headlights

Post by Heuer » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:03 pm

Layne

You will not need relay's for the LED bulbs. The voltage drop without the relay's is 11.88v from the alternator rated 13.4v so no need to worry about getting low voltage LED's - if the battery voltage dropped to 7.5v the car would not even run! The measurement from the reflector edge to the tips of the bulb connectors must be no more than 3" otherwise it will snag the rear of the bucket.

Here are Cibie and Wipac headlamp units side by side. Only the Wipac will fit the S1 as the Cibie measure 3.75":
Image

To be honest I do not think the LED's are worthwhile doing especially as they are not designed for the Wipac size headlamp. Modern Halogen bulbs with relay's will give you the same performance. This is main beam on my S1 with relay's and the latest Osram Night Breaker Plus bulbs (Click on the photos to enlarge):

Image

This is before the relay conversion:
Main before:
Image
The white lines are 9m long and separated by 3m gaps.

Note: The bulbs supplied by the company you linked to are not suitable for the S1 - they only list the XKE as far back as 1969.
David Jones
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#17 Re: LED headlights

Post by mtnjag » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:13 pm

Thanks, I currently have Hella H4 halogens in there that fit well so ill see if i can find dimensions on those and go from there based on your info.

I’m sure I’d be happy with the halogens with relays as have read your previous posts on your relay install and comparison. But was thinking these LED bulbs with the low voltage requirement, if they fit, would be nice in that they eliminate the need for the relays.

I’ll include questions on how appropriate the bulbs are for these lamps.

I’ll ck back in on what I find.
Layne
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#18 Re: LED headlights

Post by cactusman » Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:28 pm

Just to add to David's post....in Jan the MOT rules were indeed updated and they ruled out any LED bulbs fitted to headlights designed for Halogen H type bulbs.....however my understanding is that after representation by several LED suppliers, the DVSA amended the rules....here is the link.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... onversions

It is quite specific that any car USED before April 1st 1986 should NOT fail an MoT simply due to fitment of LED bulbs. It will fail if the beam aim and dip no longer comply though...per se though LED headlamp bulbs are not illegal in E types...although as many including me have said, finding one that fits may be tricky and finding one that both fits and cuts off properly on dip may be even harder. Personally....relays and 60/55W Osram or Philips bulbs and you will be fine....that's what I have and I have no intention of changing...all other exterior bulbs on my car are LED and the MOT man has never said a thing....
Julian the E-type man
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1966 MGB....fab little car too

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#19 Re: LED headlights

Post by rswaffie » Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:20 pm

:yeahthat:
Richard

Previous owner and restorer of a S1 3.8 FHC Opalescent Golden Sand with Tan Trim 889504 (now sold and headed for Athens)

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#20 Re: LED headlights

Post by Gfhug » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:41 pm

“For class 3,4,5 and 7 vehicles, the defect ‘Light source and lamp not compatible’ only applies to vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986.

Should a vehicle be presented for an MOT test with conversions before 1 April 1986 they must not be failed with immediate effect.”


Not shure who writted that but not goode English. Were the conversions done before 1 April 1986 or presented for MOT before 1 April 1986? Or do I not rede proply? :shrug:

Geoff

PS, sorry, Layne, all this talk of MOTs is meaningless to you and a drift off topic.
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