Moss Box Gear Stick Length

[andrewh]

Having just returned from Goodwood Revival I was chuffed to see so many E 's out there in dubious weather. Well done all of you braved the rain

Anyway, question is I saw several different gear stick lengths on 3.8 E's and one in particularly long, too long really. Do most of you reduce the length of the stick and if so how and by how much?

[Heuer]

Mine is standard, although not good if you use the cigar lighter for the Sat Nav!

[adam]

I was there at Goodwood. Mine is standard,sat nav does get in the way when using Cigar socket.My car now looks like its complelted a rally stage the mud on the roads getting out Goodwood was awful.

Adam

[andrewh]

Indeed very muddy it was It occurred to me after posting that the stick I saw being longer than any I have seen may well have been a box from a saloon. Presumably the stick would be longer on Mk1 or Mk2?

[PeterCrespin]

Yes the stick is longer on saloons and the added leverage tends to make the reverse detent feel lighter. For RHD drivers this isn't ideal as you are already reaching over for first. Accidentally selecting reverse at the lights is not for those (or those following) of a nervous disposition....

There is more than one version of E-type gear lever AFAIK.

Pete

[Heuer]

There is more than one version of E-type gear lever AFAIK.

Not according to the Spare Parts Catalogue - it list only C4054 for both the close ratio and shaved gears boxes.

[PeterCrespin]

Not according to the Spare Parts Catalogue - it list only C4054 for both the close ratio and shaved gears boxes.

Not a difference between gearboxes for the same model, but differences between models over the life of the E-type - such as C23178 instead of C4054?

Look through Porter's 'Original E-type',for example, and see some levers which are clearly below the level of the switch legend and some which are taller - which is where the thread originated IIRC? Different part numbers are listed over the life of the cars even if the part in any given list is the same for shaved/bearded versions of the gearbox.

Of course, sometimes the same thing got two different part numbers, or how long a lever looks can be influenced by the length/position of the gaiter or even the sag of the gearbox rear mount, but I think there was more than one version of the lever and the boxes in my shop have different length levers. Andrew's one particular 'too long really' sighting sounds like someone picked up a saloon part or was sold the wrong thing when putting their car back together?

[Heuer]

Err - C23178 is the part number for the 4.2 all synchro box lever which is not interchangeable with the Moss box one. As for the 'Original E-Type' book the only car I wholly trust to be accurate is ENO 30 as it was restored by David Worrall, and he had access to all original Jaguar parts.

[PeterCrespin]

Err - C23178 is the part number for the 4.2 all synchro box lever which is not interchangeable with the Moss box one.

Have you tried swapping them David? I wouldn't want you lifting your two trans tunnels to try, but can report I've got 3 Moss boxes and three all synchros accessible under the work bench, amongst others. I've also got a box of half a dozen gear levers, the selector levers into which they fit and pivot jaws etc. They all look interchangeable to me and I've measured them briefly to check. There may be part number differences for the washers, top & bottom bushes etc. over the years too, but fundamentally you can make any postwar lever fit any postwar box AFAIK. Even the larger diameter hollow overdrive lever is the same fitting in the selector lever and I've got one of those too.

I tend to couch my answers is terms like' AFAIK', or 'IIRC' or with question marks etc. because there's more that I don't know than that I do. It's what I did with the statement that included part numbers, because I am not 100% certain of every angle. When your arse is as big as mine you have to take care to cover it But on the matter of levers, having traded in Jag manual gearboxes for 8-9 years, I'd be very surprised if your statement was true. I have certainly swapped Moss parts in the past to put a nicer chrome lever onto a 4-synchro gearbox for sale. I just don't remember which single nuts I undid. Was it the nuts holding the levers in the selector, or the selector in the jaw or the jaw to the casing?

FWIW the two lever lengths I have to hand are 9" and 6.5" from bush flange to thread tip. The former are saloon and the latter E-type or XJ. Possibly an S-type in there somewhere. However, I think I figured out at least part of the lesser variance we can see in E-types side by side... The 3.8 pear-shaped knob is a clear 1/2" taller than the round 4.2 knob. Being slimmer and elongated in shape, it looks even more. So even cars with identical chrome lever lengths could appear to have markedly different overall stick lengths depending on knob type and how far down the threads it was fitted. A knob run all the way down the threads with the correct chrome cone covering part of the lever, would be probably an inch shorter than a 3.8 pear not fully engaged and with the shorter lock nut exposing more lever.

As for Porter's book, I agree with you there are some issues with it of course. However, my point was not to say which, if any, cars were original, any more than to assume one had a saggy trans mount or another was brand new - I simply can't know. I only mentioned it as a book that many of us have which clearly support's Andrew's initial observation that they do appear to vary quite a lot in service.

May your knob always fall readily to hand Sir!...:-)

Pete

[Heuer]

Aah, no, but, yes. You are talking about 'stuffing' aka pushing a part not designed for purpose into something not designed to take it. You have clearly trumped me with having all those gearboxes to call on but we purists insist if it ain't in the parts catalogue you can't do it!

[PeterCrespin]

The dimensions of the stick lower sections, bushes and the receiving selector lever forgings appear to be identical - no stuffing required Mr Kipling.

[Heuer]

Sorry, we now need metrics and photographic evidence. I have had to do it with light bulbs, air filters, blower motors, manifolds, wheels, tyres etc etc at your insistence. So no more "AFAIK" Mr Crespin, we want proof positive, documentary evidence, paper trails, scientific analysis and money where mouth is.

Incidentally where is your book in the scheme of things?

[andrewh]

Well this is interesting. Mine is 4.75 from top of bush flange to top of thread or 6.5 inch from bottom of stick flange to top of thread so I guess mine will be one of the shorter sticks which is good. Mine is an October 62 build and has never been "got at "

Thanks for the input guys

[PeterCrespin]

Herewith photos on this topic.
This one shows a hollow manual overdrive lever from an XJ6, where the conical metal knob comes a long way down the lever, engaging with a slot to prevent rotation, and is held with a nut. The emerging wires connect to a simple slider switch which clips into the top of the cone and forms the upper surface of the knob and is overall significantly shorter than the 4.2 E-type version below it.

The 3.8 lever below that is actually the exact same length as the 4.2 chrome lever, but the 4.2 knob screws further down and the 3.8 Moss box knob is in any case taller. So with gearsticks the same length, the overall assembly is still significantly taller on the 3.8. The bottom lever is taller still, being from a Moss gearbox saloon.



Note the base of the 3.8 stick is ridged to engage in two plain back-to-back rubber bushes (C1915). There were instances of levers coming adrift, so the redesign for the later 3.8/4.2 makes it a plain shaft fitting into a similar plain upper bush (C22394) but slightly narrower at the lowest point to allow it to be positively bolted tight into the bonded steel centre of a revised lower bush (C21921) which looks like a mini version of a shock absorber eye bushing.

All sticks fit the same sized hole in the Moss and 4-synchro gearbox selector levers. The geometry of the jaws (not shown) is subtly different between Moss and 4-synchro, with the latter bringing the lever pivot slightly closer to the selector rod, presumably so as to reduce throw at the cost of fractionally more effort.

[Heuer]

But presumably you need the associated bushes to match the lever you are using? I guess a 4.2 will fit in the Moss box but you need to swap the rubber bushes over.

[PeterCrespin]

But presumably you need the associated bushes to match the lever you are using? I guess a 4.2 will fit in the Moss box but you need to swap the rubber bushes over.

Yes, the design changed during the life of the E-type and you can fit any lever to any box. However, if for some reason you wanted to fit a Moss lever to any 4-syncho box you'd use the lower bush to suit the Moss lever. The other way around it's not really necessary, but it just wouldn't be as secure, which is why they changed it in the first place and why later is better. Nobody should go backwards to a less secure design IMHO but if you only have those bits then it's quite doable for the cost of one lower rubber bush.