Latest S1 sale

Sarthe72 · Post by **Sarthe72** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:20 am

Have a look here and prepare to be amazed:-

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21902/lot/306/

A hammer price not far short of ?80,000 and I was assured by a friend who was there that the car was worse than it seemed at first glance! How much to carry out the "sympathetic restoration" required? Well over ?100,000 I guess. Be prepared to change your insurance values folks.

Post by **Heuer** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:14 am

It's value seems to lie in the fact it is a genuine RHD car and one of the 'fabled' flat floors, of which they built 2,615 cars (about 17% of 3.8 production, so they are not rare). As to restoration cost I would say ?150,000 if you handed it to one of the specialists. I reckon that white OBL car that CMC are doing is going to cost ?200,000+.

Dave K · Post by **Dave K** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:52 pm

17% is not a huge amount of anything and how many flat floors are left? if it's a lot less than 17% then will be rare.

Dave

Post by **Heuer** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:06 pm

There are probably even less left than you think - most sensible owners paid for the Jaguar retro-fit dished floors :D The 17% is probably still correct as the attrition rate will be equal across all 3.8's.

Begs the question if you have a 'flat floor' that was retro-fitted with dished floors in period would you change it back or keep it the way it is?

Dave K · Post by **Dave K** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:52 pm

Wasn't that discussed a few weeks ago on J-L or perhaps here? Someone had a flat floor that was changed to a dished floor and said should he still class it as a flat floor or not?

I don't know what all the fuss is about, I fit in mine OK and find it as easy as any other car to drive, I've driven a friends 4.2 a few times and can't honestly say that it would make me change to a dished floor.
I suppose if the first E-Type I drove was a flat floor then thats what I'm used to so it's fine.

Pete Crespin drove mine a few weeks back and said it was OK and he must be around 6'.

Dave

ChrisC · Post by **ChrisC** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:08 am

I was there... it has quite a patina

its almost as bad as my 1935 Riley but that didn't cost me ?77,000

Post by **Heuer** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:03 am

The type of floors will be the least of the new owner's worries.

SEJohnson95 · Post by **SEJohnson95** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:14 am

If a car is built as a flat floor that what it should be referred to, even if there were a few modifications made in period. It's like when people sacrilegiously hack the roof off FHCs and then badge them as roadsters. Yes alright they technically are now, but I would always have to refer to one as e.g. a 1965 FHC, converted to a roadster, never in my mind the same thing.

Useless fact of the day, but also note studs for what looks like a tonneau cover on the top door chromes? Don't see that very often, was in done in period a lot? The tragic thing about this car is that's probably going to be re-shelled, erasing the craftsmanship of the early cars forever.

Sarthe72 · Post by **Sarthe72** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:27 pm

Well, percentages don't tell the whole story. According to Porter the change to heel wells took place in June 1962 at chassis #358 RHD, and of those 358 cars 91 were outside lock cars (even more valuable) so there were 267 flat floor RHD cars made in the format of the above car. Now according to the statistics on XKE.com and the JDC book there seems to be an attrition rate of around 50%, so allowing for cars not on either register then let's, for arguments sake, say 60% still exist. That means that there are still about 160 RHD non-outside lock RHD roadsters around. I plead guilty to writing one off in 1967 by the way, but given the value of ?300 that didn't take much in those days. Anyway, if only 160 survive, then they are going to increase in value I suppose, especially since they are for now the flavour of the month. Nothing like telling people that that they can't have one for pushing prices up.

Post by **Heuer** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:29 pm

And there were only 936 RHD 3.8 OTS's so there were 578 'low value' dished floor cars of which I guess a massive 346 still exist. Bragging rights in the pub I guess!

Post by **1954Etype** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:58 pm

And even rarer, the Series 1 4.2 RHD OTS. Only 862 made.

rfs1957 · Post by **rfs1957** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:09 pm

Bonkers price but great for those of us that got in earlier simply because they wanted a beautiful car to DRIVE. As always, the best investments made when you do the right thing for the wrong reasons. So, 200K down the line, what genuine original parts will really be left from this pile of corrosion? I'd go for 40 per cent by weight and 20 per cent by part count. Upside of all this $$$$$$$ frenzy is that it must make it much easier to swing maintenance and tweaking costs past spouses, although I can't complain since a) it was my wife that MADE me buy the car in 2003, and b) I now have to drive her around the South of France in it.

David : new Restaurant for the list - Auberge du Lac, Le Puech, just minutes off the A75 half way between Foster's bridge and Montpellier. Fantastic value for money, view over Salagou, 16 Euro lunch gets you Entree, Dessert, glass of pinard and a coffee. Not at weekends. Read that again, 16 Euros.

You read it here first.

peters3103 · Post by **peters3103** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:12 pm

I took a big gamble and bought 885175 sight unseen in 2008 and imported it into Australia. I paid ?29000. Seems like good value now. It had been in the UK since 1989 and was fully restored then including RHD conversion. It remains in beautiful but not concours condition. I am slowly replacing incorrect items used on it when it was restored. Clearly no attention was paid to its early (8th November '61) build date at that time. It was very heavily rust-proofed and appears quite sound. I must say I was relieved and delighted when it arrived here some 2 months after I paid for it. It shares the garage with a 99 XKR Coupe and 63 MGB roadster.

Pete

Simon P · Post by **Simon P** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:29 am

New record price for an E-type!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29119814

:D

Post by **Heuer** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:41 pm

No idea who did that restoration but they really need to look at a few pictures next time.

All this now begs the question that if an early S1 OTS flat floor has a valuation of ~?200,000* will owners (and I am thinking of DaveK here) want to strip out all the trick 'upgrades' and return the car to original, for that is where the value lies? It looks like if you spend ????'s on fitting a 5 speed box, big wheels, fancy shocks, MX5 seats, mapped ignition etc etc you are devaluing the car so suffering a double cost whammy! The big worry is actually using it for anything other than the occasional trip to the pub in case some old git or gitess reverses their Micra into it or throws open their doors as it is the only way they can get out. Would it be better to cash in now and buy an S2 or two as long term but usable investments?

* assume total loss or complete write off requiring a ?150k+ restoration

Sarthe72 · Post by **Sarthe72** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:50 pm

A conundrum indeed. I have loved driving my E-type for so many years, but having now restored it (mostly original) all I would need to do would be to change the fan and four pot brakes really. But I still love her, she has so many memories and while I have by far too many eggs in one Jaguar basket as a percentage of my overall "wealth" I can't even bring myself to think of selling her. This Sunday a Lynx XKSS comes up for sale at the Revival and I'll be interested to see what that brings too, and I suppose I could bring myself to part with her as anno domini takes its toll and getting in and out gets harder. Based on the final cost of the car above in a restored state I don't think that any one of us would ever have thought of having nearly ?500,000 in value in the garage. It's only, if memory serves, a couple of years back that the two were insured for a comparatively paltry ?130,000.

Oh, by the way, the market is all over the place it seems. Last night I watched the RM London auction on the internet, and a Lynx alloy low drag fetched ?185,000. Hoffmans have an identical car on the market at ?295,000. Small chance of them selling it I would hazard.

andrewh · Post by **andrewh** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:04 pm

History doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme, or to quote Winston Churchill , the further back you look, the further forward you can see.

As a Stockbroker I am guilty of seeing everything in terms of bulls and bears or boom and bust, but whilst I cannot see what will be the catalyst to burst this bonkers bubble, something will. Maybe it will be the Scottish electorate doing a turkey and voting for Xmas, thereby causing a sterling crisis and a large hike in interest rates causing a collapse in asset prices , or Putin carrying on his Unionist ambitions at the cost of normal life in Europe. Every magazine and every forum is full of chatter about prices. IMHO watch out its coming to the end.game 8)

Post by **Heuer** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:16 pm

Which is precisely why owners of 'flat floors' should consider selling sooner rather than later.

Dave K · Post by **Dave K** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:31 pm

Heuer wrote:No idea who did that restoration but they really need to look at a few pictures next time.

All this now begs the question that if an early S1 OTS flat floor has a valuation of ~?200,000* will owners (and I am thinking of DaveK here) want to strip out all the trick 'upgrades' and return the car to original, for that is where the value lies? It looks like if you spend ????'s on fitting a 5 speed box, big wheels, fancy shocks, MX5 seats, mapped ignition etc etc you are devaluing the car so suffering a double cost whammy! The big worry is actually using it for anything other than the occasional trip to the pub in case some old git or gitess reverses their Micra into it or throws open their doors as it is the only way they can get out. Would it be better to cash in now and buy an S2 or two as long term but usable investments?

* assume total loss or complete write off requiring a ?150k+ restoration

David,

It is an interesting question and something that I have thought about more than a few times lately. The good news is that I have all the original parts I took off the car and could refit them anytime I wanted too.
Angus has said more than a few times over the past 18 months that I should return it to original, cash in and buy a S2.
I'm sure he has a buyer for it :D

I'm happy to leave it as it is and just drive it, for some weird reason I don't look on it as a super valuable car it's just a nice car that I like to drive around on dry days or whenever I can.
If I really needed the money then it would go but thankfully I'm OK. Now my wife on the other wanted me to sell when she found out the JEC valuation of it 10 years ago, ?40K and of course now see's the mortgage paid off, a conservatory and loads of new clothes :D

Dave

Post by **Heuer** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:53 am

Unfortunately as values rise things conspire against you. With a flat floor or even any other 3.8 OTS valued at ?200,000 the insurance company are going to want an alarmed garage with security cameras and possibly Redcare or other monitoring services. The premium will obviously reflect the value and security arrangements plus it may come with other conditions on use. As for the real value you are damned both ways. Top money is reserved for totally original cars reflecting the way they left the factory and will need a few recognised concours wins to prove it (the insurance company will also want to see copies of concours entries to agree the value). To get it to that stage is phenomenally expensive and is not simply a case of bolting on all the bits you have stored away - quite frankly you need to start again with a re-painted bodyshell. In your case Dave the engine is going to need all the Rob Beere trick internals removed! If you opt to under-insure then a total loss (theft or accident) means you are never going to be able to get back to your original position.

Makes Angus's suggestion look like the best of all world's, flip your 3.8, buy a S2 at a third of the cost and enjoy it without a care!

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