Help outer fulcrum "new kind"

Bill B · Post by **Bill B** » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:01 pm

Sng has sent a long an outer fulcrum kit with a single tube spacer and some different hardware?.and no diagram of installation.

So, can anyone point me to an article/pics how this arrangement works?

I see 4 parts in the new catalog:

7. felt seal
8. C20179 oils seal retainer
9. C20180 spacer between bearing an seal container
10. C20182

I am guessing 9 the thin ring with a slight bevel on one side goes in once the race are and bearing have been inserted and right next to the bearing, bevel side in?

then I imagine 7. the felt goes into 8 "oil seal container" into the cup like recess and then this is put on with the more open side facing the bearing and tapped into the hub opening

then 10. "retaining washer on seating ring for oil seal" should go in last and then the nut on the shaft (centralising washers for wishbone to be added later)

And there is only one tube in the kit as opposed to two #C16623 "sleeve, on shafts" . Now in the old setup the preload shims were put between the two tubes, where do you put them in this scheme? I would think that you would put them all on one end of the other, the purpose being to simplify assembly/removal of excess shims and to avoid mangling the little shims that were in between the two spacers in the old system.

I am confused.

This arrangement isn't shown in the old catalogue just the new on P. 96

Help please

Mich7920 · Post by **Mich7920** » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:14 am

Hi Bill,

Welcome to this forum.

For the other answer it's better to explain us how many pieces of each # have you in this kit?
Your E type is a S1, S2, S3...Lightweight ?

I don't have the book with me but into the forum, look at " The E Type Knowledge Base" + "Technical information & Documentation" + S1 3.8 or S1 4.2 Parts catalogue " Suspension, Steering & Road Wheel"
You sow a frame with the way of the parts.

For a half side of a hub, the order is:
Shim C16626 + Halfshaft tube C16623+ bearing Female + bearing male with roll + C20180 + C20179 + Felt seal C20178 + Oil seat seating ring C16628 + C20182 + C16626/1.

The felt seal C20178 look at the hub opening, not the bearing.

The place of the C16628 on the frames ( just after the bearing ) is a little bit confusing .
All the parts C20180/C20179/C20178/C20182 and C16626 are arrownd it.
C16628 is the core of all these parts. It has one face against the bearing and the other against the nuts of the outer Fulcrum shaft C16624

I just see the SNG kit and there is only one tube spacer.
In fact not realy a problem, you put shime on one side and setup the preload for the same result.
With the two spacer it's difficult not hurting the shime when you setup the preload and put the fulcrum shaft.
It's certainly more simple with only one spacer and the shime realy near the bearing.
Sure some specialiste (also in english...) and users of this SNG kit are going to give you some more explanations but it's one hour AM in Europe so you just have to wait.

Hope I help you a little
Mich

Post by **mgcjag** » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:18 am

Hi Bill....had a look at this and it does appear rather confusing.....SNG are not too far from me so i called them to discuss the new kit.....still very confusing when you try to compare the parts....they did confirm that the two tubes per side are now replaced with one longer tube....they also mailed a diagram showing the 4 parts pictured in the box on P 96 of the new catalogue....i have looked at several books and part numbers and am not convinced what is the correct assembly order......if you pm my your email i will forward the diagram ther sent its diagram plate no 32..not sure how to copy it here....Any one out there thats just assembled a hub with this new kit..... have mailed SNG for more details will re post when i get more info.....Steve

Mich7920 · Post by **Mich7920** » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:57 pm

Hi Bill, Hi Steve,

I re-check the parts order and it's good for me.
I do that twice time and it's work fine.
Not an easy job for the last outer fulcrum shim ( centrelizing wishbone and hub) but feasible.

Mich

Post by **mgcjag** » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:52 pm

Hi All.....just heard back from SNG.....To start we have found a mistake on P96 of the new catalogue.. the part number C16167FK for the kit is a non existant part No and should be C16029FK....The two seperate sleevs have been replaced for a longer one piece sleeve and the shims fit at either end....to make things confusing the main diagram shows the early type seals and the more common later seals shown in the inset box......the guy i deal with at SNG is going to get one of the kits and layout the parts and come back to me with a layout......Steve

Bill B · Post by **Bill B** » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:46 pm

By "either end", you mean at one end of the sleeve, right? Because if you have to put shims on both ends it's an even bigger pain in the butt than the previous arrangement.

abowie · Post by **abowie** » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:25 pm

Not really. Having the shims in the centre makes it tricky to remove and replace the fulcrum shaft without damaging the shims. At the end(s) they are probably easier to get at.

Post by **mgcjag** » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:38 pm

Hi Bill the exact wording was...."The later one piece spacer is a substitute for the two piece one, the shims can be stuffed in at either end to give the same effect"......will check with SNG when they come back to me with the layout.. Steve

Bill B · Post by **Bill B** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:34 pm

abowie wrote:
Bill B wrote: By "either end", you mean at one end of the sleeve, right? Because if you have to put shims on both ends it's an even bigger pain in the butt than the previous arrangement.
Not really. Having the shims in the centre makes it tricky to remove and replace the fulcrum shaft without damaging the shims. At the end(s) they are probably easier to get at.

that's what I meant you get to put *all* the shims on *one* side of the tube, which should be easier.

Bill B · Post by **Bill B** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:50 pm

Mich7920 wrote:Hi Bill,

Welcome to this forum.

For the other answer it's better to explain us how many pieces of each # have you in this kit?
Your E type is a S1, S2, S3...Lightweight ?

I don't have the book with me but into the forum, look at " The E Type Knowledge Base" + "Technical information & Documentation" + S1 3.8 or S1 4.2 Parts catalogue " Suspension, Steering & Road Wheel"
You sow a frame with the way of the parts.

For a half side of a hub, the order is:
Shim C16626 + Halfshaft tube C16623+ bearing Female + bearing male with roll + C20180 + C20179 + Felt seal C20178 + Oil seat seating ring C16628 + C20182 + C16626/1.

The felt seal C20178 look at the hub opening, not the bearing.

The place of the C16628 on the frames ( just after the bearing ) is a little bit confusing .
All the parts C20180/C20179/C20178/C20182 and C16626 are arrownd it.
C16628 is the core of all these parts. It has one face against the bearing and the other against the nuts of the outer Fulcrum shaft C16624

I just see the SNG kit and there is only one tube spacer.
In fact not realy a problem, you put shime on one side and setup the preload for the same result.
With the two spacer it's difficult not hurting the shime when you setup the preload and put the fulcrum shaft.
It's certainly more simple with only one spacer and the shime realy near the bearing.
Sure some specialiste (also in english...) and users of this SNG kit are going to give you some more explanations but it's one hour AM in Europe so you just have to wait.

Hope I help you a little
Mich

39 i

so the diagram inset show doesn't show me which side is going in i.e., which side of hub they are line up for, is illustrated. i t looks like #9 is going in first that would be the very fine ring 20180 which will be closest to the bearing rollers.?

then the felt seal #7

then the container for oil seal #8

then #10 the heavy washer with the large hole 20182?

#5 seating ring for oil seal is he large bushing that goes through all that mess and has one edge against the bearing and the other against big nut

I guess you could put 5 in first or last since it passes through.? but i think you want the centralising shims under it to prevent them getting chewed up-contrary to official procedure?

what's keeping me awake nights is this should be the easy part of the car

PS: added car info in signature line

Mich7920 · Post by **Mich7920** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:59 pm

Hi Bill,

At each side of the Hub you have the bearings in first BUT to set up the preload of this kind of tappered bearing you need to put betwen them your tube spacer and some shims.
This is the first things to do.
Fit one bearing, fit the tube and shims and at the other side the other bearing. The bearing must "float" but not too much that why there is some shims.
Now you must to put it on a simple jig to set up the preload. Forget the other parts, they'll come at last. Look at this video, try to find other on the same subject.

Get the service manual to know the pre load value
After cheking and set up the preload, putting or fit out the shims, you can continue.
ON EACH SIDE you put :
One Fulcrum shaft spacer
One Container for oil seal ( You make a mistake, the good order is in that side - container AND AFTER the seal. The seal regarding the ub opening and the tappered container facing the bearing)
One Felt oil Seal ( It's better to put it into deep oil before mounting)
One Oil seal seating ring
One Retaining washer

At that time it's better to press all that parts without the wishbone, the parts get there owne mecanical place. Use the axle some large washer and well tight the nuts.

Then you can mount the wishbone.
When the wishbone is in place on the Hup with his axle and nuts well tight. Mesure the right and left gauge. Sure you have too much space in one side or other. Look at the technical book for the good space.
This is time to put the other shims which are larger.( Fit out the wishbone in first of course )
You know what thikness you need on each side, so put the correct shims.
Presse again the parts witout wishbone.
Now you are going to mount for the last time the wishbone but as there is the shims it's not the same song. Be patient and careful for the shims.

I try to do my best but if it's not enough, mail me and I send you some more frame .

Mich

Bill B · Post by **Bill B** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:10 pm

Mich7920 wrote:Hi Bill,

At each side of the Hub you have the bearings in first BUT to set up the preload of this kind of tappered bearing you need to put betwen them your tube spacer and some shims.
This is the first things to do.
Fit one bearing, fit the tube and shims and at the other side the other bearing. The bearing must "float" but not too much that why there is some shims.
Now you must to put it on a simple jig to set up the preload. Forget the other parts, they'll come at last. Look at this video, try to find other on the same subject.

Get the service manual to know the pre load value
After cheking and set up the preload, putting or fit out the shims, you can continue.
ON EACH SIDE you put :
One Fulcrum shaft spacer
One Container for oil seal ( You make a mistake, the good order is in that side - container AND AFTER the seal. The seal regarding the ub opening and the tappered container facing the bearing)
One Felt oil Seal ( It's better to put it into deep oil before mounting)
One Oil seal seating ring
One Retaining washer

At that time it's better to press all that parts without the wishbone, the parts get there owne mecanical place. Use the axle some large washer and well tight the nuts.

Then you can mount the wishbone.
When the wishbone is in place on the Hup with his axle and nuts well tight. Mesure the right and left gauge. Sure you have too much space in one side or other. Look at the technical book for the good space.
This is time to put the other shims which are larger.( Fit out the wishbone in first of course )
You know what thikness you need on each side, so put the correct shims.
Presse again the parts witout wishbone.
Now you are going to mount for the last time the wishbone but as there is the shims it's not the same song. Be patient and careful for the shims.

I try to do my best but if it's not enough, mail me and I send you some more frame .

Mich

OK.
Mich,
the guy in video appears to put the very thin ring in next to the tapered bearing.

Mich7920 · Post by **Mich7920** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:42 pm

Yes I know, it's the second way to put the shims.
I don't know how you say this in English but the French translate is " it's not in the rules of art "
the Fulcrum shaft spacer is very thin it's not the better way to put a shim.
In the other side it's the tapered face of the container seal, not good also to be precise. But some guys do that.
The E Type rear suspension is very thin compared with some other brands and you have much power than a lot of them so it's important to be precise for this kind of E Type part.
There is an other video showing the set up of a Jaguar ( not E Type ) hub but it's similar. Sorry but I can't fine it.

An other video speaking about the preload bearing

Mich

Post by **mgcjag** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:03 pm

Hi All.... just had a reply from SNG...please see the attached photo of the order in which to fit the parts... note that part no C16624 is not supplied in the kit and you need to retain your original.. Steve

Mich7920 · Post by **Mich7920** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:59 pm

Great, better that words !

The part missing is C16628 as it is write on the frame near the bearing ( and not C16624... )

Bill, you can buy it in new, SNG have them. Remember to fit it after mounting the seal and not just after the bearing.

With this, Bill, you are going to have the better Hub of the world!

Bill B · Post by **Bill B** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:21 pm

AWESOME. The felt seal retainer is shown reversed from the way it should be installed on this side of spacer tube, isn't it? Because the well oiled felt would go next to the bearing and the cupped shape retainer's more open part would go over the felt, leaving the less open, more fully metal side of the felt retainer to face the outside of the car..

Thank you for taking the time to get involved in this mess which has required an inordinate amount of head scratching and swearing.

Mich7920 · Post by **Mich7920** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:48 pm

Oupss ??

From the beguining you make a mistake with the felt seal retainer, you put it in the wrong way ! As mgcjag tell you, It's to keep the grease in and road grime out.

you come for the first time in this forum with certitudes, do not seek advice from those who have already done this work properly, stay with your certitude!
Very sorry I spend time to try to understand something to someone who does not want to understand.

Sold your E Type man, and rapidly!
Scraching head so much for this simple work is not a good sign for you.
You are going to loose your head because E Type is a world that obviously you'll not understand... :lol:

Mich

Post by **mgcjag** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:17 pm

Hi Bill as far as i can tell the diagram and parts layout are correct..the felt is a seal to keep grease in and road dirt out.......not as a lubricating pad for the bearing... Steve

Bill B · Post by **Bill B** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:26 pm

mgcjag wrote:Hi Bill as far as i can tell the diagram and parts layout are correct..the felt is a seal to keep grease in and road dirt out.......not as a lubricating pad for the bearing... Steve

AH.

So the "cup" side faces out, the felt goes into that, and then the large hole washer on top of that. At what point does one insert the large spacer (not shown)? After that is assembled or try and build all this around the spacer?

Post by **mgcjag** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:53 pm

Bill....what large spacer that isnt shown...was this in the kit?.....part No..? Ok do you mean the one large sleeve that replaces the two smaller ones....if so..have a look in the maintenance manual for assembly and setting the shims.. usa a dowel or 15mm copper tube to aid assembly, then push through the shaft...to replace the dowel.. Steve

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