Subframe Bolt finish

Steve Marshall · Post by **Steve Marshall** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:30 pm

My '69 OTS is finally(?!#! expletive deleted) going off to be resprayed. The frames are going to renew their acquaintance with the tub on the way to the paintshop.

Would I right in thinking that Jaguar sprayed them bolted together, nuts, bolts and all, and that those lovely shiny new bolt kits would be wrong (and just possibly evil)?

And the picture frame?

And are there any other sneaky bits which should be body colour too, apart from boot, bonnet, doors, door hinges, fuel filler flap?

Steve

chrisvine · Post by **chrisvine** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:49 pm

I'm not sure about the frame painting but the two A-post seal retainers should be painted the body colour

Simon P · Post by **Simon P** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:18 pm

From the JCNA S2 Guide:

Original owners of two unrestored cars report plated bolts connecting subframe to fire wall and picture frame - no original owners have reported painted bolts at these locations to date

And:

SUB FRAME BOLTS:

Plated silver cadmium ?GKN? with silver cadmium plated nylock nuts

HTH

Simon

Steve Marshall · Post by **Steve Marshall** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:22 am

That's for the help chaps. Info on any other bits which need to be included would be particularly welcome.

I am getting the hard top and the '69 body sprayed in ODB which is wrong on several levels anyway, making my entire approach to originality rather suspect.

It's good news, because shiny new bolt heads do look nice. I would be thinking high tensile with three lines at 120?, in BSF or UNF. I could ask the restorer but I practically need a ouija board to elicit any response.

Jaguar wouldn't have masked the bolts, and temporary bolts would have been a bit of a fag so maybe they did completely finish the components separately. I can't recall where I got the idea that they were assembled before painting.

Might have to get the originals replated, if GKN's prove hard to find.

Does anybody know what was between the frames and the body - when it left the factory? Body finish, primer or nothing.

abowie · Post by **abowie** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:08 pm

Steve Marshall wrote: I can't recall where I got the idea that they were assembled before painting.

Might have to get the originals replated, if GKN's prove hard to find..

The bonnet bolts are painted; that may have been the area of confusion.

If you still have the originals then definitely replate and reuse them, they look great. GKN, Bees bolts etc are unobtainable commercially except for the occasional EBay items. All the frame bolts will be 5/16 UNF. They are listed here https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8496016/subfra ... rdware.pdf

Jaguar did not use washers under the bolts or nuts. Personally though I always use thin 5/16" flat washers under both as it stops the otherwise inevitable paint damage.

abowie · Post by **abowie** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:38 pm

WRT the frames make sure they are competently inspected before being repainted. The best time to do this is immediately after they have been media blasted. If you miss a problem, repairing it or replacing the frames after your reassembled car fails an MOT is a massive pain.

The tubing is very thin walled and corrodes from the inside. Shake the frames and listen for bits of rust moving about inside. Any visible hole in the frame tubes is unacceptable. Carefully inspect every brazed joint; these can develop hairline cracks.

Cracks in the brazing can be repaired by someone experienced with brazing with bronze rod. If there are holes in the frames most people would replace the whole frame.

The picture frame is not made of crome moly but mild steel and can be repaired, panel beaten and welded safely.

Steve Marshall · Post by **Steve Marshall** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:21 am

Andrew - you spookily anticipated my next query precisely. My subframes are fine, the Texas climate was kind to them, but somebody decided that the picture frame would make a good jacking point. So I was wondering if there were any special considerations when repairing it.

Annoyingly the restorers chucked away the old bolts on the grounds that they were rusty. I had specifically asked them NOT to dispose of any old parts.

They report that the bulkhead area under the subframes was bare metal, and the photographs show the mating plates on the subframes to be bare too. So were they originally painted together as an assembly? Were they masked for their original painting? Admittedly the car was refinished at some time by brush painting, but he couldn't even be bothered to remove the bonnet. It was later repainted to light blue, but seemingly that guy couldn't even get around to opening the bonnet.

Mark Gordon · Post by **Mark Gordon** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:52 pm

"They report that the bulkhead area under the subframes was bare metal, and the photographs show the mating plates on the subframes to be bare too. So were they originally painted together as an assembly? Were they masked for their original painting?"

According to Phillip Porter, "Jaguar E Type, The Definitive History", page 163, in the beginning, the subframes and shell were painted together and then the subframes were detached and the subframes and engines/gearboxes were mated before joining to the bodies. Later (when?) the frames were attached to the body and painted and then the engines/gearboxes were installed. I think that this accounts for the apparent bare metal fasteners joining some frames to the bulkheads and others (my '67 with original, apparently never removed frame rails) having the fasteners painted over.

Steve Marshall · Post by **Steve Marshall** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:03 pm

Well the evidence available suggests that that frames and shell were originally painted already bolted together, temporarily or permanently. My bolts were certainly hand-painted red subsequently by some bozo (which proves nothing), and unfortunately I can't check to see if they were light blue under under the hand-painted red because they have now been chucked away. Pity

Ropariva · Post by **Ropariva** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:42 am

Hi Steve
My car is April 70 build and I aquired it in an original unrestored condition.
It was clear all the subframe components had been painted prior to fitting and had a dum dum type sealer around the joints.
Advice from this forum was to ensure minimum paint where the assemblies join. I originally refitted all the bolts minus washers (as per factory) under the heads, but due to the inevitable paint chipping, I went back around and placed washers under all the heads where they were visible.
See
viewtopic.php?t=5800&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I had all my bolts replated but decided to use new ones anyway.
Another thing that was actually attached prior to painting on my car were the bonnet pin receiving brackets (BN19917) These were body colour along with the bolts
All the best

Steve Marshall · Post by **Steve Marshall** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:49 am

Thanks Ropariva - small point - were the bolt heads on your pin receiving brackets painted as well?

Steve

Steve Marshall · Post by **Steve Marshall** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:22 pm

Please disregard previous post Ropariva noted that his bolts were painted.

Steve Marshall · Post by **Steve Marshall** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:30 pm

While trying to find a paint code for the differentials (I failed) I came across this:-

JCNA Series 1 E-type Judge?s Guide
Approved at the 45th Annual AGM March, 2003
By Bob Stevenson, Chief Judge ? Jaguar Affiliates Group of Michigan

...

FOOTNOTES
Footnote A:
Although the original Jaguar production line photos such as Porter pages 163, 167, 249, 379 all show unpainted subframe bolts, from surviving original cars we know that some were painted.

Ropariva · Post by **Ropariva** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:23 am

Hi Steve
From my own research I would have to conclude that the production line methods at Browns Lane must have changed many times over the years and it would be almost impossible to suggest that something like painted bonnet pin brackets is correct for anything other than the cars produced on the same day as mine. :D
I was lucky to have not only my car as a reference for originality, but also my cars twin sister, another unrestored, one owner Australian delivered series 2 that is the very next chassis number. The pictures of this cars strip down are almost identical to mine even down to the rust points. Interestingly, as these cars were for the Aussie market, the chrome bonnet beading, eyebrows and headlight trim were painted body colour.
All the best.
Alan

Simon P · Post by **Simon P** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:02 am

Ropariva wrote:Interestingly, as these cars were for the Aussie market, the chrome bonnet beading, eyebrows and headlight trim were painted body colour.

Blimey! File that one under 'aesthetically challenging local market modifications'... Any photos of an E-type in such a state?

Ropariva · Post by **Ropariva** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:48 am

Simon P wrote:
Ropariva wrote:Interestingly, as these cars were for the Aussie market, the chrome bonnet beading, eyebrows and headlight trim were painted body colour.
Blimey! File that one under 'aesthetically challenging local market modifications'... Any photos of an E-type in such a state?

A few pics here of its factory paint scheme
http://www.xkedata.com/cars/detail/?car=1R20826
Next car is its twin that has had its eyebrows etc chromed.
And another one here in pale primrose.
http://www.xkedata.com/cars/detail/?car=1R20860

I'm thinking the Lucas chroming plant broke down that day....

Simon P · Post by **Simon P** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:06 am

I quite like this photo. Looks a bit like it should be a Pink Floyd album cover... :D

Ropariva · Post by **Ropariva** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:27 am

Like Atom Heart Mother
Subtract the cow. Add Jag, chopper and sister in law.
It's the correct year :D
Are there many e-Type owners that are Pink Floyd fans?
The new generation perhaps?
Cheers to my brother for the classy pic.

abowie · Post by **abowie** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:06 am

Ropariva wrote: Are there many e-Type owners that are Pink Floyd fans?

I doubt that there are many that aren't. Britain in the sixties produced the best of everything; except perhaps orthodontics.

Steve Marshall · Post by **Steve Marshall** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:29 pm

I managed to find some NOS GKN HT bolts, and I intend to fit them with no washers on the engine side, and paint the shell with the frames bolted up. Seems to be the most probable ex-factory condition for Feb 1969.

My question is: what size are the washers inside the car under the nyloc nuts? - I image that they are mudguard washers ID 5/16. OD?

Steve Kemp says (Link below)

24 off UFS.131/7R Hex cap screws securing side members to bulkhead. Al heads are toward engine compartment. Ensure washers are under nuts on inside of cockpit. 5/16" x 7/8"

and

11 off FW.105/T Plain washers under nyloc nuts on cockpit side of bulkhead/das/firewall. Note that factory claims twelve wsahers exist, however fuel filter mounting bracket may account for thickness of one washer on right hand side of car. The eleventh washer has been seen under opposite location in some cars. 5/16"

http://www.xke-lovers.com/memberfiles/subframe.pdf

Does this mean that only the upper 11 or 12 bolts have internal washers? (why?)

Steve Kemp remains silent on the washer OD question (but otherwise great) but he does show pics of the original long nyloc nuts (and notes that packs of bolts usually have the wrong ones) - does anyone know where such long nylocs can be procured?

Tx

Steve
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