Water pumps

Talk about the E-Type Series 3
User avatar

Topic author
lowact
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:05 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:
Australia

#1 Water pumps

Post by lowact » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:28 am

What I’ve learned about water pumps; here are pic’s of the pump impellers discussed in this post; Aftermarket/early Jaguar/late Jaguar = left/centre/right = top/middle bottom.
Image
Image

The aftermarket is now mostly what is available, originally from East Coast Jaguar, now also from SNGB. SNGB product code is C36363 notwithstanding that it is different to the OEM impeller with this number. It is marketed as “new, improved”, imo it is not. Chunky, with restricted flow passages, with vanes that protrude to upstream of the shroud that will cause it to work more like a washing machine than a pump, i.e. the following pics, the first is with the aftermarket impeller, the second is with a genuine Jaguar impeller:
Image
Image

Imo net result is the aftermarket impeller will have the lowest flowrate and may be prone to “choke” (very reduced flowrate) at higher speeds. I have been using one of these aftermarket impellers (gentle road use) since 2015 with no issues whatsoever. However, if motorsport is yr thing and overheating is an issue, you may find that a genuine Jaguar impeller would be an improvement.

The 1st (early) Jaguar impeller was quickly superseded. Seems (?) this impeller never had a unique part number and was never sold separately by Jaguar. It is 34 mm high. The nose of this impeller served as the contact surface for the ceramic seal, being relatively soft the cast iron nose was prone to wear (1st pic), causing leakage from the shaft vent hole. Setting the impeller and seal is critical which may (?) be why the parts were never sold separately, only as a complete factory assembled pump.

The later Jaguar impeller was in the pumps fitted to engines numbered from 7S7785. It has part number C36363 with C36363 (or P36363) stamped on the back of it. It is 21 mm high. Flowr passages are maximized, there is no excess metal. From HE engines onwards the impeller part number was EAC3212. Seems there is no difference between C36363 and EAC3212 impellers. The late Jaguar impeller pictured above, with C36363 stamped on the back, is from an HE XJ12. Imo this later Jaguar design is the preferred impeller.

Early pumps have shorter bearings and housings, incl. to accommodate the longer impeller, i.e. early (left) and later (right) bearings:
Image
The later impeller can be fitted into an early pump if a different (non Jaguar) seal is used.
Because of the different length bearings and housings the early and late pump v-belt alignments are different. Just means you cannot simply swap whole pumps without considering belt alignment/interference issues.
Last edited by lowact on Sun May 02, 2021 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


angelw
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:27 pm
Location: Ballarat, Vic, Australia
Australia

#2 Re: Water pumps

Post by angelw » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:25 am

Hello Colin,
The conversion from early to late model water pump for the S3 E is rather expensive; not so much for the pump unit itself, but the difference in price to get the kit containing the plumbing infrastructure required.

The main reason for the conversion to the later model is that the bearing unit for the early model is not available. One alternative to the unavailable, off the shelf early model bearing unit, is to purchase a generic blank with the correct bearing body size and soft, oversize shaft and machine the shaft to size.

The following picture shows the comparative sizes of the early and late model bearing unit.

Image

I offer a conversion device for the early S3 water pump that allows the fitting of a late model repair kit. The following picture shows the longer, late model bearing unit fitted to an early model water pump housing. The bearing housing feature of the late model pump is approximately 6mm longer than that of the early model. The bearing unit is still very well supported.

Image

Colin Wrote:
Just means you cannot simply swap whole pumps without considering belt alignment/interference issues.
The following picture shows the same water pump in the previous picture, with the V Belt Sheave attached; the V Belt Sheave has to be the late model unit. When the late model V Belt Sheave is used with the longer, late model Bearing Unit, there is correct alignment with the other V Belt Sheaves in the system. Outwardly, you see no difference to an original early model water pump V Belt Sheave, but the axial position of the centre boss is quite different. Accordingly, the early and later model water pumps are able to be swapped (if you wish to go that way) and the alignment of the V Belt Sheaves retained.

Image

I manufacture a Stainless Steel sabot that is pressed into the rear end of the bore for the water pump bearing. This locates the seal in the correct axial position for the impeller location. The only part of a standard late model water pump repair kit that can't be used, is the supplied gasket that needs to fit on the face indicated in the following picture. This is a fairly easy gasket to make.

Image

Once the conversion sabot has been fitted and a late model V Belt Sheave obtained, any future repairs only requires the purchase of a late model water pump repair kit.

Regards,

Bill

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

PeterCrespin
Posts: 4461
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:22 pm
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland.
Contact:
United States of America

#3 Re: Water pumps

Post by PeterCrespin » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:00 pm

The best posts on J-L and here lately, cram so much info I have to swallow them in two bites. No wonder I had trouble with that gasket a year ago on my XJ12. The best posts nowadays also tend to be signed 'Bill'. :yellow:
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

AussieEtype
Posts: 535
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:59 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Australia

#4 Re: Water pumps

Post by AussieEtype » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:32 am

Yes I agree - my engine being very early still has the early water pump on it - it deals with Aussie hot summers OK but the gaskets where the housings bolt up to the engine are suspect - first noticed 37 years ago driving through the back streets of Paris and a squirt of green fluid coming out of it but fixed by tightening but still in the back of my mind.

When I put my car back on the road I think I will need to have a look at the water pump and I have bookmarked this thread as a reference for when I do it.

Thanks for posting

Garry
1971 Series 3 E-type OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


angelw
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:27 pm
Location: Ballarat, Vic, Australia
Australia

#5 Re: Water pumps

Post by angelw » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:19 am

Hello All,
Further to my previous Post on the Water Pump conversion, of the following pictures, the first shows the Water Pump bearing and the Stainless Steel Sabot in place:

Image

the next shows the Water Pump bearing, the Stainless Steel Sabot and the Seal assembled, waiting for the sandwich plate and impeller.

Image

Regards,

Bill

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Nick V12 e type
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:21 pm
Location: Midlands UK
Great Britain

#6 Re: Water pumps

Post by Nick V12 e type » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:15 pm

Excellent very useful post Bill.
It will help me when I tackle my water pump bearing replacement.

Thank you
Nick
e type series 3 V12 2+2 1972, Tesla Model S 2016

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

MLBS3V12
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 6:57 pm
Location: France
France

#7 Re: Water pumps

Post by MLBS3V12 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:10 pm

Very interesting post for sure! :police: :yellow:
I would have like to get it 3 months ago when I was looking around mine. :doh:
Le chemin sera long!...

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
lowact
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:05 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:
Australia

#8 Re: Water pumps

Post by lowact » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:06 pm

Bill, the last photo you posted shows the seal in position.
These seals comprise a stationary part that presses into the casing and a captured rotating part that presses onto the shaft. I.e.:
Image
Where do you buy these? I tried buying a seal from SNGB, part number ADU6170. What they have sent is just the stationary part ...
Last edited by lowact on Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


angelw
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:27 pm
Location: Ballarat, Vic, Australia
Australia

#9 Re: Water pumps

Post by angelw » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:19 pm

Hello Colin,
I get them as part of a repair kits.I'll look up the supplier and ask if they will supply just the seal.

Regards,

Bill

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
lowact
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:05 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:
Australia

#10 Re: Water pumps

Post by lowact » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:38 pm

Thx, not these by any chance?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JAGUAR-WATE ... 5064803303

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JAGUAR-WATE ... 3668305728

If yes, I have asked, waiting for reply. I bought one of the early e-type kits a few years ago, when they were trading as East coast Jaguar. Very happy with it. I think the seal OEM is Chinese: https://trisunltd.com/waterpumpseal/246.html .
But I don't want 1000, just want one (seal), for the later pump type although, by my measurements the same seal can be used in the early and late pump versions.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Nialls Shortbear
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:57 pm
Location: USVI
Virgin Islands (USA)

#11 Re: Water pumps

Post by Nialls Shortbear » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:53 am

Mr Colin,

We have done a few of these using the east coast gentleman and have been happy with results, some of the malarky surrounding these are whether historically the water pump was changed to a later more available XJ12 pump, which had the impeller at a different position. There's a big thread on this somewhere. Either way we put together a few pumps of both type using his kits and they seem good.

One E that we got was using an XJ12 pump, and had had the pipes arranged accordingly and the alternator shoved forward to line up the belts. Its a dog to sort out actually. Also, some people using the XJ12 pump, machine the pump casting to allow the pulley to get pressed further on to line up the belts.

It must have been due to the fact that all the V12s moved to a different pump after e-type was discontinued and so people started bastardizing according to what was available.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


angelw
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:27 pm
Location: Ballarat, Vic, Australia
Australia

#12 Re: Water pumps

Post by angelw » Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:58 am

Nialls Wrote:
It must have been due to the fact that all the V12s moved to a different pump after e-type was discontinued and so people started bastardizing according to what was available.
It's the early S3 E type where the pump repair kit is hard (near impossible) to get. The later system is readily available.

The early pump housing had a different take off for the radiator hose and a different length bearing. SNG Barratt sell a conversion that includes a new housing and plumbing, but is rather expensive in my opinion. I offer a conversion (shown earlier in this thread) that allows the bearing, seal and impeller from the later system to be used with the existing, early housing and plumbing. Once the conversion is made, subsequent repairs are as for the later system.

Regards,'

Bill

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic