6.0L conversion

Talk about the E-Type Series 3

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funcar
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#1 6.0L conversion

Post by funcar » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:21 am

Hello, I am wondering if anyone has exchanged their carby engine with a 6.0L fuel injected. I have access to a complete car. Mine is a manual trans. I don't know what it would take. I would assume I would need an adaptor plate to match up. However I am not sure how much work is involved. Any remarks or information greatly appreciated.Best Regards

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lowact
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#2 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by lowact » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:46 am

Dude, your alias is "funcar". Its yr fate. What model/year?
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#3 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by funcar » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:31 pm

I have a 1973 XKE series 3 roadster manual trans. The donor car is a 1996 X-305 6.0L LWB LHD automatic. thanks

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MarekH
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#4 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by MarekH » Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:29 pm

The dowel pattern and bolt pattern on the back of the 6l block is different from that of your car, so the bellhousing for your current gearbox does not match.

5.3l and 6l bolt patterns shown respectively. The white arrows are where the dowels are on your block.

coffetable bolt pattern2.jpg
coffetable bolt pattern2.jpg (84.2 KiB) Viewed 1447 times
6litre bolt pattern.jpg
6litre bolt pattern.jpg (65.34 KiB) Viewed 1447 times

An alternative is to remove the entire inlet manifold topside of the 6l car and simply put that onto your current block. Add a trigger wheel on the front and custom programme an ECU of your choice.

Here is one ready prepared.
hn010015v2.JPG
hn010015v2.JPG (184.7 KiB) Viewed 1447 times
kind regards
Marek

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#5 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by funcar » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:48 pm

Thanks for the quick reply, what a setup. Haven't had much experience with the setup. Is there more information that would enable me to proceed? Best regards Robert

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#6 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by lowact » Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:13 am

Wow, the last iteration of the V12, and the best imo. I don’t think I could bring myself to wreck one of those. Imo it would make a great stable-mate for the E, you would be book-ending the entire history of the V12, your own little museum. Build a shrine in the corner with a bobble-head of Walkinshaw on it, you could charge admission, register as a church and get your gas for free.

I define the incremental upgrade opportunities as: Stage I = + efi, Stage 2 = +HE, Stage 3 = + 6.0 litre. I’m currently in the middle of a Stage 2 upgrade (also changing from gasoline to propane). I know there are quite a few 6.0 litre E’s around. at least three on this forum. However I don’t know if any are based on such a late model V12.

Superficially, the only difference between Stage 2 and Stage 3 is the 6 litre crankshaft and con-rods. But there is a lot more to an X305 than just that. Imo issues with the X305 is that it is radically different and not well documented in the public domain. E.g. unlike every other V12 it does not have a manifold balance pipe, it has twin idle control valves , different crankcase ventilation system, efi is sequentially controlled, fully electronic engine management, integrated emissions control (incl air pump, EGR, catalytic converters) etc.

I am retaining my e-type engine block, you maybe couldn’t/shouldn’t do this. For 6 litre, you need the 6 litre block to accommodate the 6 litre crankshaft, unless you are prepared to re-engineer yr e-type block. Then there is the issue of engine numbers. To use yr 4-speed with a 6 litre block, you wouldn’t use an adaptor plate, there are new aftermarket universal bell-housings available.

You would need to re-use your existing e-type crankcase, oil cooler and filter arrangement. For the saloons these were changed to accommodate the front sub-frame and steering, conversely the saloon arrangement of these doesn’t fit in e-type.

You would need custom exhaust headers. The saloon headers don’t fit within the e-type frame. The e-type headers cannot be used because they clash with the efi V12 water rails. You would want to use the x305 water rails because they mount the twin idle air control valves. Therefore custom radiator hoses also.

The alternator cannot be located where it is on the saloons, clashes with the e-type frame. Cooling system, radiator and fans, would need to be substantially the e-type items. X305 wiring looms would need to be completely reconstructed to suit the e-type. X305 Fuel pump would need to be retrofitted into yr e-type fuel tank.

Etc.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#7 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by funcar » Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:48 pm

Wow! I think you have been around Jags for a long time!I have been hoarding Jags too. I have also a 1994 LHD LWB X-81.Great car! I don't know which is more suitable for the pictured? Both 6.0L are fantastic cars. The amount on information you have given will take some time to digest. One system is Marelli based with Lucas ECM. The other is later and most electronics are Nipondenso. Both have USA specs. The later model has an interesting set up for ignition with a large chopper ring that bolts to the crank and serves to create spark through a pickup at the rear top of the engine. I know because the car would not run correctly and through codes.It seems that the former owner had bent this reluctor ring. I then had trove the transmission and replace it. Any added information or comments would be welcomed. Are all years of 6.0L block identical? Thanks Again

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#8 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by lowact » Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:27 am

The x305 ecu (PECUS = Programmable Electronic Control Units System) features distrbutorless/multicoil ignition by Nippondenso. I.e if you remove the top cove you will see, instead of a distributor, there are two 6 terminal coil packs. That chopper wheel is how the ecu knows the engine position for calculating exactly when to fire each of the coils, the HV output is directly from the coil to the spark plug.

The Marelli ignition system on the XJ40 has a distributor, a single coil and a dedicated ignition control unit. The control unit uses the position of the distributor for calculating when to fire the single coil, the HV output is distributed to the appropriate spark plug by the distributor.

If you look at Marek’s last photo, his ignition system is essentially the same as on the X305. It is distributorless/multicoil. Instead of Nippondenso it is Ford EDIS (Electronic Distributorless Ignition System). Instead of two 6-ternimal coil packs it is three 4-ternimal packs (same difference). He also has a trigger wheel.

I don’t have any experience with 6 litre engines, just what I have researched. My understanding, the crankshaft dimensional differences that require a 6 litre block are to do with the rear oil seal, i.e. nothing to do with the engine capacity. My understanding, apart from the rear oil seal and bellhousing bolt pattern, all v12 blocks are interchangeable. Others may be able to confirm/correct this.

I have to ask, one thing that I would really like to see, if you ever get the opportunity, is good photos of the top of the x305 engine with the top cover removed. I’m trying to learn how the x305 crank-case ventilation system was arranged and whether it incorporates an effective balance pipe, also whether the PECUS uses 1 or 2 MAP (manifold air pressure) sensors. With enough good photos I should be able to figure this out, would help me with my build ...
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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MarekH
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#9 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by MarekH » Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:07 am

There ought to be plenty of examples of fuel injected cars on both this website and on jag-lovers.com if you search for "fuel injection". I wouldn't feel wed to the 6litre concept without understanding the 5.3litre options first, as adding a new bolt pattern issue just muddies the waters.

You'll also find some old archived material of conversions to fuel injection on msruns.com and newer posts on msextra.com

The PCV system was substantially beefed up on the final NipponDenso version of the v12. The inlet manifolds had quite wide pipes under the throttle plates which went back and joined to the jackshaft valley cover via some pipework which had similar restrictors (or orifices) as seen on the earlier cars. There are plenty of Jaguar pdf technical documents on the web detailing the sedan service manuals/engine ancillaries.

kind regards
Marek

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#10 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by lowact » Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:08 pm

MarekH wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:07 am
plenty of Jaguar pdf technical documents on the web
Prompted me to search further than usual. Success – a few bucks’ later I now know everything. No balance pipe between the manifolds, MAP sensor for each. Crankcase vented from the valley cover – ok!
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AiSPBKa26IcchONBYGj ... g?e=canxcw
A particular change I noticed, the water rail to the back of the cylinder heads has been deleted. By this forum I learned about the Lutz modification, whereby the cooling water outlets from the front of the heads are restricted so that the flow from the rear outlets might be increased. Evidently unnecessary according to Jaguar.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#11 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by funcar » Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:53 pm

I have pictures to download but it comes up with the message that the file is to big? Any thoughts? Usually I just drag and drop?

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#12 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by lowact » Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:16 am

Below the edit pane should be text "Add image to post". If using Windows it needs to be Win10, doesn't appear with Win7.
Assuming it is there, use it to add a photo hosted by Postimage. The 1st and last portions of the created link comprise square brackets containing text that starts and finishes with "url". These 1st and last portions are optional, can sometimes cause Postimage to block viewer access, I always delete these.

If you ever find that access to a photo is blocked, solution is to right click and choose "open image in new tab".
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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Barry
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#13 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by Barry » Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:59 pm

Here is my 6.0 litre engine. It uses the very last crated 6.0 litre engine that was found in the parts department at Jaguar in 2005. It is mated to a standard Jaguar 4 speed gearbox. The work was carried out by Wilkinson’s. The rest of the car has been modified by Eagle, such as brakes, suspension and steering. With standard injection and AJ6 Engineering bigger throttle bodies, it produces 385bhp.
Image

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#14 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by lowact » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:46 am

G'day Barry. I believe I am trying to use the same air filter housings as you, except they don't fit, what trickery is req'd? All the photos of yr car on the web, none of them show clearly enough the detail I need, can I have this photo of your car, showing the front of the RH air box, how is there clearance beside the top of the inner mudguard, with room for the bonnet? Either I must modify the housings, or our filter housing are not the same ...?
Image
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#15 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by MarekH » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:35 am

Dear Colin,
there is more than one type of airbox for the xjs/xj12. The ones Barry has have the big hole for the throttle body in a different place to the ones you are using. If you want to use your airboxes, you'll have to mark out the line of a rectangular box (offset about the throttle body opening) on the inside of the airbox, Dremel out along the line, turn the rectangle around and then TIG weld it back in.

Alternatively find some alternative parts from a different model year and check the differences for yourself before purchasing.

kind regards
Marek

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#16 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by lowact » Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:05 pm

Hello Marek, Barry. I have noticed 2 filter housing variants: For XJS 6 litre engines the throttle openings were at the very rear. For 5.3 litre HE engines the throttle openings are ~14 cm from the rear. The later is what I have and what I believe Barry has, Mann 46 073 80 106 & 116, i.e.:
Image

Imo the 6 litre variant cannot be made to fit into an e-type, I guess this is why the earlier variants are used.
In my case, to make the 5.3 HE variant fit like it belongs, not only would I need to move the throttle openings as Marek describes, because I am using e-type thermostat housings (Barry isn’t) I would also need to change the orientation of the trumpets, by drilling out spot welds, bending, trimming and re-welding. Instead, if there is a 3rd variant, that can be more readily retrofitted, or any other solution, I would love to know about it.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#17 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by MarekH » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:45 pm

My usual solution to such a conundrum is to go back to first principles and solve the problem backwards. If you start at the answer, then going backwards to where you are now will always tell how to get from where you are now to where you want to be.

In my case, I superimposed the original carburettor and fuel injection airbox blueprints over each other using a paintshop type programme and then made up an extension piece for the original airboxes.
Xmanifold overlay.jpg
Xmanifold overlay.jpg (29.74 KiB) Viewed 480 times
That guarantees the manifolds fit exactly like the originals.

The car now sports larger airboxes (good for performance - read the Bywater website) which have to fit because their external geometry is that of the original car. Inside the airboxes, it is necessary to weld in a cross piece so the bolts in the plate over the air filter have something to mount to.
Xairbox3 new sheetmetal prior to seam welding2.jpg
Xairbox3 new sheetmetal prior to seam welding2.jpg (112.06 KiB) Viewed 480 times
Xairboxes unpainted - note beatiful seam welding2.JPG
Xairboxes unpainted - note beatiful seam welding2.JPG (141.55 KiB) Viewed 480 times
Welcome to the world of custom fabrication

kind regards
Marek

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MLBS3V12
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#18 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by MLBS3V12 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:02 pm

I cut a bit from the box and closed it with metal sheet.
Attachments
Filtre a air.JPG
Filtre a air.JPG (39.21 KiB) Viewed 393 times
Filtre a air2.JPG
Filtre a air2.JPG (32.91 KiB) Viewed 393 times
Filtre a air3.JPG
Filtre a air3.JPG (24.58 KiB) Viewed 393 times
Le chemin sera long!...

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Barry
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#19 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by Barry » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:01 am

Sorry guys, I am on holiday in Greece! Yes, Marek answered on my behalf and is correct about the type of air filter used in my car.
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#20 Re: 6.0L conversion

Post by MarekH » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:13 pm

Oh no ! Let's hope it doesn't rain!
You seem to have forgotten to close the bonnet before you left!
:lol:
kind regards
Marek

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