New Owner - Cooling System Concerns Need Advice

JFrazar · Post by **JFrazar** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:55 pm

I am a new E-type owner. Car is a 1974 OTS with 25,000 miles, Car runs and drives great. I have one concern. It is 86 deg and feels like 91 with humidity. My temp gauge is finding its normal position about 3/4 of the way up. I pulled my lazer temp gun out and I have readings of 200 Deg on the water fill tank, 200 Deg on the Radiator and 225-250 on the cyl heads. No diff on left or right banks. Both fans are working and look new as does the radiator which the records say was replaced in 2006 and the car has had very few miles since then. Maybe I should start with a coolant change? - It looks perfect.

I know that these temps are normal for a modern car but I am concerned as the temps in south Georgia are normally much hotter than this and I don't want to overheat my Jag. I am going to add some Water Wetter to the cooling system and see if this helps but my main question is the Fans. I have read that some remove the factory fans and replace them with modern units - More air ect. One guy I found claims that a VW from the 80's will bolt right in to the factory mounts and fit the factory fan housing. Is this something you guys would recomend. Tell me any other ideas or what to check. I don't think that I have any headgasket issues as I have not signs of that as an issue.

Any help or guidance would be welcome.

Joe Frazar
Savannah, GA USA

Post by **Heuer** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:03 pm

Joe

Temps seem normal to me but Water Wetter is worth another 5c in my experience. More modern fans might be an idea so check out Coolcat and Kenlowe and see if they have something suitable. E-Type's like to be on the move so speed is your friend, hence avoid areas where you know you will encounter slow moving traffic. If your coolant has not been changed in six years it would certainly be worth doing it and adding the correct amount of glycol.

SESH · Post by **SESH** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:39 pm

Hi Joe,
Those temps are what I get on my series 3 OTS with a laser reader. I have added two bottles of water wetter because the system takes so much water. Make sure you are running a 50/50 mix of antifreeze or inhibitor, I use Bluecol in mine.

I have replaced the radiator core with a high efficiency core and a new header tank. I have also installed the coolcat VW fan modification. You get a couple of new 6 blade VW Jetta fans from an 80's series car (quite cheap on Ebay, I paid GBP 28 each for brand news fans) they fit straight into the existing fan holders. You need to wire the fans through a 50 amp fuse to a couple of relays to protect the switches. As the fans have a high speed setting I hooked the high speed side up to the switch that is usually used for the heated rear window (there isn't a heated rear window on the OTS!) It's the rocker switch on the far right. The high speed draws a lot of current so you don't want to use it all the time, but its useful to manually increase the airflow through the Rad in heavy traffic. If you do the conversion make sure you use good quality high amp wire as it gets quite warm on high speed setting. By the way, my temp gauge reads anything between the middle of gauge up to the L of NORMAL when in use.

The coolcat link is here...
http://www.coolcatcorp.com/V12Fan/V12Fans.html

Link for VW Fans on Ebay UK......
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RADIATOR-FAN- ... 5ae64eccbc

Good luck.
Mike

JFrazar · Post by **JFrazar** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:47 pm

The car stays at the L or just below 90% of the time. I think New coolant, some fans and 2 water wetters might be the ticket. Now 1 more question. I read the factory repair manual and it says to drop 2 packets of "Bars Leaks" into the coolant. Are they serious? The factory recomends this?

Joe Frazar

SESH · Post by **SESH** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:50 pm

Hi Joe,

I have heard that before, but my instinct is not to add anything that can clog the waterways, which is in my opinion, making a bigger problem.

Mike.

Mountain King · Post by **Mountain King** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:21 am

Hi Joe,
Also check out V12s for fans and shrouds, US made so you won't have to pay the horrendous import duties I did....

Andy

Post by **Heuer** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:57 am

The factory put two bottles of Barrs Leaks into every car and, as far as I can tell, it does no harm and ensures you do not get any leaks developing. arguably, if you have good hoses and clamps which are checked for tightness with the system hot, you should not need Barrs Leaks but it could prevent a problem developing on the road.

MarekH · Post by **MarekH** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:08 am

Joe,
I am also a s3 owner. The sole purpose of Barrs Leaks is to clog up small gaps. Once it has done that, it'll clog up larger gaps. Better to flush out any crud from the block and the radiator. After that, the best advice is to regularly change the coolant and use the recommended mix of antifreeze as this contains a corrosion inhibitor. Too much antifreeze is unhelpful. Overheating, were it to happen, will arise either in stop/start traffic if the fans fail or after shutdown when the fan is off and the temperature climbs 7 degrees or so whilst no coolant is flowing and no air is circulating. If in slow moving traffic, use the fans. When you arrive at your destination, allow the fans to run on for a few minutes and if possible, open the bonnet to let air circulate.

The v12 etype generally doesn't have overheating problems. Many people lump it in with the other v12 models, all of which are heavier cars with a totally different cooling system.

kind regards
Marek

vee12eman · Post by **vee12eman** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:28 am

Hi Joe,

I can?t speak for the performance of my cooling system prior to the rebuild, as the car was definitely not running prior to my starting. However, I had heard a few things about the Series 3 cooling system being a little doubtful, so I decided to uprate. I will describe my upgrades below:

Before even starting, I bought an alloy radiator, not a difficult decision as no radiator came with the car and the price of my alloy item was around the cost of a new copper radiator plus surcharge. I added an alloy radiator cowl fitted with two modern fans, this came from V12s in USA:

http://www.v12s.com/

This was great, except for the ridiculous amount of duty charged by UK customs - over 33%; this was when VAT was only 17.5%!! Cheeky sods, but I had no choice and it was still cheaper than a secondhand set of fans and mountings, also missing from my car when bought.

An immense amount of silt and corrosion was discovered inside the engine ? I hope this isn?t the case with anyone elses? unit; the corrosion was so bad that one of the heads actually refused to come off all the way, despite correct tools and experience of a respected Jaguar V12 engine rebuilder. Sadly, I had to scrap the unit and use a later one from an XJS, although most of the engine internals are from my original E-type motor. This new unit was sent for chemical cleaning and came back like new, internally and externally.

The advice to change coolant is good, but I suggest that you start by ensuring the system is full, then drain it, then capture and measure the coolant you release. You should get 20.5 Litres, significantly less than this is unfortunately bad news and may indicate silt, but at least you will know. A small amount less is not such a problem and you may be able to clean the system by back flushing with a hose pipe ? I suggest you do each component separately to prevent the chance of clogging any part of the system with debris from another. It may be a time to replace some of the many hoses too. You might consider using a flushing agent prior to this, but if you are nervous about this, perhaps do the measurements first and if the system seems clear then a simple fresh water back flush should be sufficient, flush until the water comes out clear ? I think this will take some time with such a large system and a lot of water of course. You can always refill the system, add flushing agent and run according to the instructions of the agent, then cool the engine and flush as described.

My next modification was to replace the Otter switch with a modern item. The parts required came from Coolcat, it required a new ?T? Piece, replacing the original piece where the otter switch is located. The new unit allows you to choose your own temperature setting, as several temperature switches are available. I chose the setting of 75⁰, which seems low, but the sensor is actually measuring the temperature of the fluid exiting the radiator after cooling, other values are available in approximately 5⁰ steps, speak to Mike at Coolcat for advice. The switch design is common to that fitted to several German cars, so fairly readily available.

Of course, I replaced the thermostats and also the header tank. I had to fit a steel unit as I could not find a replacement Alloy version, I actually missed one on Ebay, but never found another.

Wiring the new fans seemed to prove the original design of relay was not up to the job, although that may be unfair since I used a repro item, although bought from one of the more reputable specialists. In the end, I designed my own wiring system loom, using a separate modern relay (40 amps) for each fan, this can be found here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8496016/S3%20Fan_Relays.pps

The wiring is new, and as mentioned elsewhere, make sure it is up to the job and use a fuse, I chose a modern 30 amp blade fuse which has proved up to the job so far. I also used a new sensor on the temperature gauge transmitter.

Also make sure all the cowls are present and directing the air over the radiator, not allowing it to escape around it.

So, the results? Well I have driven around in heavy traffic, including lots of traffic lights and queuing, in temperatures over 30⁰ centigrade and the temperature never reached halfway on the gauge.

Obviously I have quite a few upgrades and a system which is as near new as possible, but it shows what is achievable. I don?t use water wetter, because my system doesn?t need it, but I have heard good things about it, but I guess my experience proves it isn?t required in a good system.

Previously in UK, I always flushed systems out well with fresh water as described above and it is amazing how long it takes for radiators and engine blocks to run clean. Using a quality antifreeze/corrosion inhibitor is a must; for when temperatures dip below freezing and I can travel to the nearby mountains at any time of year with confidence.

Some photos of the system and modifications:

New Radiator and V12s Fans:

Coolcat switch housing installed (I just edited this post to add the V12s Site, they now offer something similar which can be bought complete with the fans, but although I am very happy with the fans and shroud, I have no experience of their switch, so can't comment, I suggest you talk both to them and to Mike at Coolcat as suggested earlier):

One of the two relays installed (it is virtually hidden by the cowl when fitted):

Finally, the old engine, showing the silt build up inside the water jacket - this silt was pretty hard too:

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Simon.

JFrazar · Post by **JFrazar** » Sun May 06, 2012 12:44 pm

Update:

I ordered an alum radiator from CoolCats, new thermostats ect. I also plan on updating the fans per coolcats with the VW units in the factory mounts. Since I bought the car my businesses have been keeping me very busy and family ect. I will post the results of my efforts.

Any tricks for pulling the distributor and cleaning the advance?????? - I am going to try and cover all my bases when I put her in the shop.

I can't find an Advance curve chart for these cars. What should the correct idle and full advance settings be?

Joe Frazar
Savannah, GA

vee12eman · Post by **vee12eman** » Sun May 06, 2012 1:22 pm

Hi,

I admit to not being an expert at tuning etc. and I have never tuned or set any details with reference to an advance curve - always relying on original settings.

However, I think the details you need are in the original manual, a link to which is on this forum - here is the link to the electrical pages of the manual:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8496016/S3%2020_Electrical.pdf

The rest of the manual is available on this helpful page:

http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1664

I think from memory, the weights in the distributor are marked with the number of degrees of advance and for the E-type with the V12 it is either 16 degrees or 18 degrees, I can't remember which. If the distributor is original though, you should be right. It may also differ for different markets, US settings are likely to differ from my UK car.

The distributors can be tough to remove if they have corroded - mine got damaged when being removed, because of this but I think it was an extreme case. To remove, paint a reference mark to assist in replacing in the correct position (or near enough) relative to the engine, then follow the instructions in the manual (linked above). This shows you how to strip down the distributor, then the weights are easily seen. There is a good chance they will be seized up, so hit them with some WD40 or similar releasing fluid, then keep on flushing them with the fluid, try to move them, more fluid until free. Then, once free and easy to move get some light, high temperature grease and work it well in, I used an aerosol grease which seemed to work well. then reassemble, following the manual instuctions.

Some pictures:

The distributor showing the induction disc and pickup - remove the circlip to lift the disc from the shaft, then lift the felt pad from the centre of the shaft to reveal a screw which, when undone, releases the shaft from the rest of the mechanism - see the manual for more detail:

The weights mechanism which often seizes up:

The rest of the mechanism soaking and being cleaned - you can see the advance degrees noted - 18 in this case. A fine wire brush is helpul removing old grease and corrosion, the felt lubrication pad can also be seen:

Note that the vacuum unit, actually a reterd unit for lots of reasons on these cars, is prone to the diaphragm becoming hard and failing - a new vacuum unit is the cure.

Regards,

Simon

Woolfi · Post by **Woolfi** » Tue May 08, 2012 7:59 am

water wetter helps ?
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/0 ... AE-review/

Regards Wolfgang Gatza

JFrazar · Post by **JFrazar** » Thu May 10, 2012 12:07 am

Thank you very much for the info. Radiator and Therms came in today. Can't wait to start putting some miles on my e-type. Big change from my Ferrari's, Porsche's and Lamborghini's. Feel like I have my old Countach's motor in the front of this 2 seater English sports car.

Might be a week or two as my shop is covered up with other cars and projects.

Joe Frazar
Savannah, GA USA

JFrazar · Post by **JFrazar** » Sun May 27, 2012 2:34 am

SUCCESS!!!!!!

Installed Alum Radiator, and VW Fans per Cool Cats Rec. - did 2 new thermostats. What a diff. Cooling System is 100% fixed and very happy. Found a little bit of water stain on the water pump weep hole and went ahead and replaced that as well. 95 deg day and it felt like 110 deg with hum, car ran cool with no problems. Drove car home from my shop in middle of day with heavy weekend traffic. I only used the low fan speed and not the high speed. Will wire in the high speed very soon.

Thanks for the advice. Already have a local V12 owner having similar problems, wants his car done the same as mine. Just met him at a party tonite.

AC is the next to fix. Must have in Savannah GA.

Joe Frazar

Woolfi · Post by **Woolfi** » Sun May 27, 2012 8:15 am

This ditributor has a advance vacuum unit. Where is the rubber hose connected to the carb ?
Regards Wolfgang Gatza

vee12eman · Post by **vee12eman** » Sun May 27, 2012 10:32 am

Hi Joe,

Congratulations on the successful upgrade, a good cooling system is great for confidence in the heat.

Wolfgang,

Yes, the distributor is actually from an XJS and was converted with the help of Dave Curry at Reopus NewZealand from 5 wire to 6 wire to fit my E-Type. The Vacuum advance was changed from the one shown in the photo to a new retard unit - I was going to try to fit an advance system, but it got too complicated, hence the reversion to original design. At the time of the photo, I had not made up my mind to convert and the photos were of the strip down prior to fitting the retard unit.

For a car converted to Advance, try this site:

http://www.pclarkson.plus.com/Ignition1.html

Regards,

Woolfi · Post by **Woolfi** » Sun May 27, 2012 7:24 pm

Hello Simon !
"to fit an advance system, but it got too complicated"
I have done the conversion to an advance system 7 years before. It was easy to do. You have to dismount the second carb on the left side of the car, drill a hole like it is shown in Pauls pictures and "mount" a small pipe.
You mount the carb on the motor, connect the advance unit with the small rubber hose and all is done.
I have checked the result (the amount of vacuum) with a vacuum gauge when driving in forth gear from 20 to 120 mph. When driving slowly the amount of vaccuum and therefore advance is high. When driving 100 mph the advance is becomming less. At every speed, the amount of vacuum is becomming very low, if you press the pedal suddenly to the floor.
The result will be a higher mileage.
The only problem to do the conversion is the ankle of the drill, when drilling the hole into the carb. The end of the channel should be 1 mm in front of the brass "gas-door" of the carb. If it is 2 mm mor to the entry of the carb, the amount if vacuum in relation to the speed is not perfect.
I am driving a EV12 with 6,0 L motor (from an 93 XJ81) with 4 Stromberg carbs and the mileage with a 5th geear Getrag and a 2,88er diff is roundabout 20 mpg (14 L for 100 km). In the city the mileage is much lower. When driving 70 - 120 mph on a german Autobahn the mileage is below 16 liters for 100 km. My lowest gas consumption when driving steady with roundabout 50 - 70 mph was roundbaout 11 L / 100 km.
I think the conversion is done in 4 hours including carb demounting and mounting.
Can somebody explain me, how to put pictures directly into my posting. I can post a diagramm from a Bosch motor book, that is showing the extra advance of a vacuum system to the normal advance curve.
Regards Wolfgang Gatza

AussieEtype · Post by **AussieEtype** » Mon May 28, 2012 2:49 am

A very interesting thread and good cooling upgrades applied. However the reality is that the standard cooling system is certainly up to scratch in hotter climates around the world if it is in good condition.

While my car has not been on the road for a while - when it was, I never had an issue with the engine getting hot in very high temperatures. However precautions are advised as not all systems are up to scratch. In hotter climes it is important to have the lower slots in the radiator surround blocked not open as would be expected. This means that at lower speeds, the fans suck air through the radiator rather than sucking some air through the slots and never getting through the radiator.

Good luck with the mods and please report back how they go.

Cheers

Garry

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New Owner - Cooling System Concerns Need Advice

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