Hi All,
Thanks for all you help with my previous post, as promised here is an update on how my the first MOT (in many many years) went.
As I had only been able to tinker with the engine without any load (sat on my parents drive) I was unsure how she would run on the open road to the test station. The first mile was ok, the engine felt hesitant but I put that down to it being sat idle for such a long time. However, after a mile or so she started misfiring and I had to nurse her to get her to move along. This problem progressed so I rolled to the side of the road to inspect, everything looked ok but I couldn't get her going at all. After an hour or so and with a helping hand from my Dad's car (jump start) and a squirt of easy start (I know, bad idea!!!!) she was running quite well but not perfectly. The next 5 miles were much better, misfiring every now and again but generally OK.
The test went very well, I had taken it there to get a "to do" list but came away only requiring a steering gaiter and to sort a bit of a back box leak. I was very happy with this and set off home. (again, needing a jump start and a squirt of easy start).
On the way home after about 2 miles the engine started misfiring again but I kept it going. Misfiring then turned to backfiring and spitting through the carbs. About 1 mile later she died altogether and I admitted defeat with a tow home.
I have since been thinking what the problem could be and have come up with the following ideas of which I appreciate any feedback or alternative ideas.
IGNITION SYSTEM:
I have done very little to the ignition system over a visual check and a static timing. I plan to dismantle the distributor to look at the vacuum advance mechanism. With the distributor cap off the disk and rotor are are able to move freely by hand for about 1/8th turn and very softly springs back. I assume this is normal and part of the advance mechanism, am I right? Other than that, I will check all wires look in good condition. Is it worth putting a new coil on it? Is it possible to check a coils efficiency?
VALVE CLEARANCES:
When checking the valve clearances they seemed very tight to me, they were nearly all under the handbook distances however I was told by a Jag specialist that it would probably be ok. I just wonder if when the engine is hot there is a small amount of valve lift when they should be shut, therefore allowing backfiring and spitting through carbs? The only thing that doesn't add up is that when up to temperature on the drive she seems to run better when warm, this problem has only occurred when driving on the road.
FUEL SYSTEM:
I have rebuilt the carbs and set them up by ear as per the manual, she has been treated to a new fuel pump and petrol is getting through without a problem. My only thought is that sludge could be getting sucked through from the tank (fuel level has been low) though that wouldn't answer the backfiring...would it?
I guess all these things are possibilities but does anyone else have any suggestions. I'll have a look at the obvious (and easy) possibilities tomorrow but all thoughts are gratefully appreciated.
All said, I got home with a big smile and thoroughly enjoyed my first experience in an e-type!
Marcus.
Bad (but good) e-typing!
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Marcusj1000
Topic author - Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am
#2
Marcus
Good to hear you are starting to get to grips with it. First thing to check is the fuel tank sump filter (best done with not much fuel in the tank!) because all sorts of muck and rust can settle there and be stirred up with movement blocking the fuel flow. Check out this post as someone else was having a similar problem: http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... light=sump
If the problem persists then it is a case of working through the obvious candidates of Stromberg's, coil, HT leads, rotor arm and cap. The other thing to consider is a problem with the Opus electronic ignition module. More information here:
http://www.reopus.co.uk/
http://www.reopus.co.uk/Original%20Wiring%20XJ12.html
Good to hear you are starting to get to grips with it. First thing to check is the fuel tank sump filter (best done with not much fuel in the tank!) because all sorts of muck and rust can settle there and be stirred up with movement blocking the fuel flow. Check out this post as someone else was having a similar problem: http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... light=sump
If the problem persists then it is a case of working through the obvious candidates of Stromberg's, coil, HT leads, rotor arm and cap. The other thing to consider is a problem with the Opus electronic ignition module. More information here:
http://www.reopus.co.uk/
http://www.reopus.co.uk/Original%20Wiring%20XJ12.html
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
2024 Lexus LBX
Add your E-Type to our World Map: http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810
S1 OTS OSB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
2024 Lexus LBX
Add your E-Type to our World Map: http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810
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Marcusj1000
Topic author - Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am
#3
Thanks for the quick response.
I will spend this weekend looking at the simple things that could have gone wrong and drain the tank to see what comes out (other than fuel!).
I will do some research on the reopus system, its sounding like a sensible mod.
I'll let you know what I find.
I will spend this weekend looking at the simple things that could have gone wrong and drain the tank to see what comes out (other than fuel!).
I will do some research on the reopus system, its sounding like a sensible mod.
I'll let you know what I find.
74 v12 2+2
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#4
Hi Marcus,
Good luck with the investigation, I recently went through something similar myself as my car was on the road for the first time in years after restoration. In my case, the car ran well and I had done more work than you, the car had been a total wreck and I had cleaned the tank out thoroughly, all pipes were new, pump rebuilt and a new filter fitted. The car ran OK, although not perfectly. I note you said you set the carbs by ear; I presume you mean that you balanced them by listening to the hiss through a tube? I have tried this in the past and had variable success, I then moved on to a Gunsons "Carbalancer", which helped, but have now bought a "Uni-Syn" balancer:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SU-CARBURETT ... 5ae477884b
This is available across US and also Australian sites, I couldn't find one in UK, but there are other designs available. The Uni-Syn is recommended for VW twin carbs (my other vehicle) but worked very well with the four strombergs on the E-type.
Using this does help and got me a better response when used carefully. I also tried using Colourtune equipment, using two at a time and balancing each pair of carbs, then balancing them to each other. The process needs a lot of repetition as each adjustment affects all the previous ones, eventually you strike a happy medium. However, when trying again to balance, I reverted to the method of lifting each carb piston a (very) small amount each time and noting the response - rev increase = mixture too rich, revs drop = mixture too weak, no rev change = just about right. I got better eults this way than using the Colortune, even though I have been using Colortune for years now on other vehicles.
The comment about wires is worthy of note, I actually had the Reopus kit fitted - I dealt with Dave in New Zealand who is the originator of the design. He was very helpful and continues to be so. However, he used the original wiring and later I discovered a couple of the connections were failing and I replaced one of the cables to the coil, at the same time replacing the coil itself. Have you checked the spark plugs?
The Reopus system appears very good, I sent my amplifier to Dave in NZ as mentioned, he replaced the electronic board and tested it for me, also offering advice on how to use it with my more modern two wire XJS distributor (my old one was no good and I had not been aware of the differences when I bought the XJS item), so he certainly knew his stuff. I think there is a UK representative, or there was back then.
The original OPUS does apparently break down with age and rising temperatures. Early cars like mine had the amplifier mounted in the valley of the "vee" and this was changed on later cars like yours to mounting it on the engine frames in the airstream from the radiator fans. If you can, try to insulate the amplifier and test the system on the road. (A big difference to the car when on the road as opposed to during tuning is the under bonnet temperature as the bonnet obviously is normally open during tuning.) An improvement may mean you have identified the problem and you will need to do something about it, with a new ignition system, I think only s/h original OPUS amplifiers are now available.
The dirt in the tank idea is a definite possibility, at very least fit a new filter in the boot mounted filter unit. Unfortunately, opening and draining the tank can be very difficult - I had to use heat to remove the sump of my tank, although the drain bolt came out fairly readily, this may not allow very thorough cleaning however. I used heat to get mine off - not adviseable if the tank contains, or recently contained fuel of course.
Anyway, good luck, I hope this helps a little.
Regards,
Simon.
Good luck with the investigation, I recently went through something similar myself as my car was on the road for the first time in years after restoration. In my case, the car ran well and I had done more work than you, the car had been a total wreck and I had cleaned the tank out thoroughly, all pipes were new, pump rebuilt and a new filter fitted. The car ran OK, although not perfectly. I note you said you set the carbs by ear; I presume you mean that you balanced them by listening to the hiss through a tube? I have tried this in the past and had variable success, I then moved on to a Gunsons "Carbalancer", which helped, but have now bought a "Uni-Syn" balancer:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SU-CARBURETT ... 5ae477884b
This is available across US and also Australian sites, I couldn't find one in UK, but there are other designs available. The Uni-Syn is recommended for VW twin carbs (my other vehicle) but worked very well with the four strombergs on the E-type.
Using this does help and got me a better response when used carefully. I also tried using Colourtune equipment, using two at a time and balancing each pair of carbs, then balancing them to each other. The process needs a lot of repetition as each adjustment affects all the previous ones, eventually you strike a happy medium. However, when trying again to balance, I reverted to the method of lifting each carb piston a (very) small amount each time and noting the response - rev increase = mixture too rich, revs drop = mixture too weak, no rev change = just about right. I got better eults this way than using the Colortune, even though I have been using Colortune for years now on other vehicles.
The comment about wires is worthy of note, I actually had the Reopus kit fitted - I dealt with Dave in New Zealand who is the originator of the design. He was very helpful and continues to be so. However, he used the original wiring and later I discovered a couple of the connections were failing and I replaced one of the cables to the coil, at the same time replacing the coil itself. Have you checked the spark plugs?
The Reopus system appears very good, I sent my amplifier to Dave in NZ as mentioned, he replaced the electronic board and tested it for me, also offering advice on how to use it with my more modern two wire XJS distributor (my old one was no good and I had not been aware of the differences when I bought the XJS item), so he certainly knew his stuff. I think there is a UK representative, or there was back then.
The original OPUS does apparently break down with age and rising temperatures. Early cars like mine had the amplifier mounted in the valley of the "vee" and this was changed on later cars like yours to mounting it on the engine frames in the airstream from the radiator fans. If you can, try to insulate the amplifier and test the system on the road. (A big difference to the car when on the road as opposed to during tuning is the under bonnet temperature as the bonnet obviously is normally open during tuning.) An improvement may mean you have identified the problem and you will need to do something about it, with a new ignition system, I think only s/h original OPUS amplifiers are now available.
The dirt in the tank idea is a definite possibility, at very least fit a new filter in the boot mounted filter unit. Unfortunately, opening and draining the tank can be very difficult - I had to use heat to remove the sump of my tank, although the drain bolt came out fairly readily, this may not allow very thorough cleaning however. I used heat to get mine off - not adviseable if the tank contains, or recently contained fuel of course.
Anyway, good luck, I hope this helps a little.
Regards,
Simon.
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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Marcusj1000
Topic author - Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am
#5
Hello again.
Its Sunday evening and I have spent some time this weekend going through the bits and pieces. I started at the tank, the inline filter I put in looked clear and I drained the tank as I can't garruntee the quality or age of the fuel. I took out the fuel level sender unit and intake/return pipes to have a good look in. The filter looked good and the tank very clinically clean.
I then moved on to checking the intake and breather pipe work, this showed up a few things that I hadn't spotted before. The vacuum advance tubes came from each of the four carbs but also came from one of the four inlet manifolds (5 inputs). I'm not sure where the inputs should come from, I assumed just the carbs. Can you shed any ligh on this?
More worryingly the small hard lined pipes going from the L/H bank inlet manifolds were completely free to the elements, they look like there should be a small balancing pipe or something to link the two inlet manifolds. Can anyone clear this up for me?
I then did some diagnostics on the vacuum module on the dizzy, it all felt a but rubbish so I took it apart and the diaphragm was completely perished, I will get a new module here. On stripping the dizzy to my suprise the weights all looked free as I had read they seized up very easily.
I will put all of these bits right and keep my fingers crossed, the unused breather pipes from the inlet manifold are my most likely culprit for the ultimate breakdown but all the other bits definitely need sorting too.
Basically I'd really like to know how many vacuum inputs are required and what the inlet manifold breathers should do!
Thanks again for all your help.
Marcus.
Its Sunday evening and I have spent some time this weekend going through the bits and pieces. I started at the tank, the inline filter I put in looked clear and I drained the tank as I can't garruntee the quality or age of the fuel. I took out the fuel level sender unit and intake/return pipes to have a good look in. The filter looked good and the tank very clinically clean.
I then moved on to checking the intake and breather pipe work, this showed up a few things that I hadn't spotted before. The vacuum advance tubes came from each of the four carbs but also came from one of the four inlet manifolds (5 inputs). I'm not sure where the inputs should come from, I assumed just the carbs. Can you shed any ligh on this?
More worryingly the small hard lined pipes going from the L/H bank inlet manifolds were completely free to the elements, they look like there should be a small balancing pipe or something to link the two inlet manifolds. Can anyone clear this up for me?
I then did some diagnostics on the vacuum module on the dizzy, it all felt a but rubbish so I took it apart and the diaphragm was completely perished, I will get a new module here. On stripping the dizzy to my suprise the weights all looked free as I had read they seized up very easily.
I will put all of these bits right and keep my fingers crossed, the unused breather pipes from the inlet manifold are my most likely culprit for the ultimate breakdown but all the other bits definitely need sorting too.
Basically I'd really like to know how many vacuum inputs are required and what the inlet manifold breathers should do!
Thanks again for all your help.
Marcus.
74 v12 2+2
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#6
Hi Marcus,
I can't necessarily identify all the items you have described and it occurs to me that the spec of the car is important; i.e. is the Car in Standard UK spec or was it an import? The same is true for the carbs/manifolds themselves, which may not be original. Is there any chance of posting some pictures and highlighting the areas of concern?
The Vaccuum Advance is, in fact, a retard system, there is quite a bit of info on this available on both this forum and elsewhere, such as Jaglovers. They are available as replacements from SNG Barratt, but I doubt it is the cause of the problems you describe. The sense for the unit comes from the LH rear carb on a UK spec car, there should be a thin, solid pipe which routes to the retard unit with a couple of rubber end pieces.
Interconnections between the carbs include
1) A clear (often stained brown) pipe linking the front and rear carb on each bank, this allows choke related fuel flow from one carb to the other.
2) Four short brass outlets, just below and to one side of the dashpots, which are interconnected front carb to rear carb each side by three "legged" pipes with short rubber hoses, then across the engine to the other carbs using the third 'leg" of each tube. These tubes are linked in the centre by short rubber hoses to a "T" piece which goes forward to the engine oil breather. This balances the vacuum in each carb and provides a link to burn a little of the oil vapour created, also is important since the carbs are set to run with this sense of internal engine pressure, rather than atmospheric.
3) Four short hard outlets on each inlet manifold, each of which faces the other outlet on the coresponding fwd/rear manifold. Each is linked via 2 rubber "T" pieces which bridge the gap between each manifold and are cross linked over the engine via a metal pipe. (approximately 15mm in diameter - I lost my pipe at the platers and used a piece of copper plumbing pipe as a stand in - this is still fitted!).
There are fuel pipes linking the two sides too of course, the RH side supplies pressure fuel, the LH side has a return of excess pressure fuel - this is controlled by a one way pressure relief valve on the return line on the LH side of the system, just above the carbs, is this fitted in the correct orientation and is the internal spring fitted, serviceable and is the ball bearing present? If not, perhaps the fuel is returning to the tank too easily and you may have a fuel shortage when under load? I bought a new spring for mine.
I will try to post some pictures later (haven't got the appropriate Hard drive available right now) and try to label the various outlets/connections on my UK spec car.
In the meantime have a look at the manual (if you haven't already) which can be found here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8496016/S3%2004_Fuel_System.pdf
Non-return valve is covered by step 19.40.28
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Simon.
I can't necessarily identify all the items you have described and it occurs to me that the spec of the car is important; i.e. is the Car in Standard UK spec or was it an import? The same is true for the carbs/manifolds themselves, which may not be original. Is there any chance of posting some pictures and highlighting the areas of concern?
The Vaccuum Advance is, in fact, a retard system, there is quite a bit of info on this available on both this forum and elsewhere, such as Jaglovers. They are available as replacements from SNG Barratt, but I doubt it is the cause of the problems you describe. The sense for the unit comes from the LH rear carb on a UK spec car, there should be a thin, solid pipe which routes to the retard unit with a couple of rubber end pieces.
Interconnections between the carbs include
1) A clear (often stained brown) pipe linking the front and rear carb on each bank, this allows choke related fuel flow from one carb to the other.
2) Four short brass outlets, just below and to one side of the dashpots, which are interconnected front carb to rear carb each side by three "legged" pipes with short rubber hoses, then across the engine to the other carbs using the third 'leg" of each tube. These tubes are linked in the centre by short rubber hoses to a "T" piece which goes forward to the engine oil breather. This balances the vacuum in each carb and provides a link to burn a little of the oil vapour created, also is important since the carbs are set to run with this sense of internal engine pressure, rather than atmospheric.
3) Four short hard outlets on each inlet manifold, each of which faces the other outlet on the coresponding fwd/rear manifold. Each is linked via 2 rubber "T" pieces which bridge the gap between each manifold and are cross linked over the engine via a metal pipe. (approximately 15mm in diameter - I lost my pipe at the platers and used a piece of copper plumbing pipe as a stand in - this is still fitted!).
There are fuel pipes linking the two sides too of course, the RH side supplies pressure fuel, the LH side has a return of excess pressure fuel - this is controlled by a one way pressure relief valve on the return line on the LH side of the system, just above the carbs, is this fitted in the correct orientation and is the internal spring fitted, serviceable and is the ball bearing present? If not, perhaps the fuel is returning to the tank too easily and you may have a fuel shortage when under load? I bought a new spring for mine.
I will try to post some pictures later (haven't got the appropriate Hard drive available right now) and try to label the various outlets/connections on my UK spec car.
In the meantime have a look at the manual (if you haven't already) which can be found here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8496016/S3%2004_Fuel_System.pdf
Non-return valve is covered by step 19.40.28
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Simon.
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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#7
Hi again,
I am now at home and realise that I forgot two more connections, which are on the rear of the LH rear inlet manifold. I am not sure why there are two connections here, one is used for the supply to the brake servo reservoir, the other is used for the auto transmission, which I replaced with Manual on my car, so it isn't used, I just used a short length of hose with a piece of 1/4 inch rod inserted and all clamped up - I am sure you can get proper blanks, but I didn't have one to hand, so used what I could find. These connections do vary depending on the market the car was intended for and whether exhaust emission equipment was fitted.
I'll try to get some pictures up soon - have to find them first!
Regards,
Simon.
I am now at home and realise that I forgot two more connections, which are on the rear of the LH rear inlet manifold. I am not sure why there are two connections here, one is used for the supply to the brake servo reservoir, the other is used for the auto transmission, which I replaced with Manual on my car, so it isn't used, I just used a short length of hose with a piece of 1/4 inch rod inserted and all clamped up - I am sure you can get proper blanks, but I didn't have one to hand, so used what I could find. These connections do vary depending on the market the car was intended for and whether exhaust emission equipment was fitted.
I'll try to get some pictures up soon - have to find them first!
Regards,
Simon.
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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#8
Some Pictures:
Hope this helps'
Regards,
Simon.
Hope this helps'
Regards,
Simon.
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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Marcusj1000
Topic author - Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am
#9
Hi Simon.
Thanks for the info, those pictures are very useful. I have been looking at a parts catalogue that has some useful detail views and from this it is clear that it is currently completely wrong! It is a uk spec car but It has become apparent that i need to go through the entire system from scratch to get it right. the only other thing that I can't see from the pics is I have some tiny exits from the inlet manifolds (in the same orientation as your balance breathers) they are male pipes a couple of mm in diameter. I will get some pics up when I can to help explain my description.
I had been searching for detailed pics of uk spec cars to see where everything should go but I think some logical thought and methodical working is also required!
Unfortunately I can't get to work on the car for the next few weeks but it gives me time to plan my next move and order some parts that I think I need. I guess the big unknown is the ignition system, I don't really want to pay for the opus upgrade parts if what I have is actually ok so I guess I'll leave that to last and keep my fingers crossed!
I'll take some detailed pictures when I'm next with the car and put them up, the more I think about it I'm surprised she was running at all!!!
Once again, thanks for your help. And if anyone can think of any other avenues then I'm all ears!
Regards, Marcus.
Thanks for the info, those pictures are very useful. I have been looking at a parts catalogue that has some useful detail views and from this it is clear that it is currently completely wrong! It is a uk spec car but It has become apparent that i need to go through the entire system from scratch to get it right. the only other thing that I can't see from the pics is I have some tiny exits from the inlet manifolds (in the same orientation as your balance breathers) they are male pipes a couple of mm in diameter. I will get some pics up when I can to help explain my description.
I had been searching for detailed pics of uk spec cars to see where everything should go but I think some logical thought and methodical working is also required!
Unfortunately I can't get to work on the car for the next few weeks but it gives me time to plan my next move and order some parts that I think I need. I guess the big unknown is the ignition system, I don't really want to pay for the opus upgrade parts if what I have is actually ok so I guess I'll leave that to last and keep my fingers crossed!
I'll take some detailed pictures when I'm next with the car and put them up, the more I think about it I'm surprised she was running at all!!!
Once again, thanks for your help. And if anyone can think of any other avenues then I'm all ears!
Regards, Marcus.
74 v12 2+2
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#10
"I can't garruntee the quality or age of the fuel."
Marcus, if the fuel is old and stale that can cause some of the problems you have encountered. Have you tried filling with fresh high octane petrol (Shell V Power or similar).
Mike
Marcus, if the fuel is old and stale that can cause some of the problems you have encountered. Have you tried filling with fresh high octane petrol (Shell V Power or similar).
Mike
1973 Jaguar E Type Series 3 OTS Signal Red
1968 Proteus Jaguar C Type Ecurie Ecosse Flag Blue
1963 Triumph TR4 Signal Red
2020 Mustang Bullitt Highland Green
1968 Proteus Jaguar C Type Ecurie Ecosse Flag Blue
1963 Triumph TR4 Signal Red
2020 Mustang Bullitt Highland Green
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christopher storey
- Posts: 5698
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- Location: cheshire , england
#11
Quote : The Vaccuum Advance is, in fact, a retard system, there is quite a bit of info on this available on both this forum and elsewhere, such as Jaglovers. They are available as replacements from SNG Barratt, but I doubt it is the cause of the problems you describe
Are you sure about this, Simon ? The US cars had retard, but I am almost sure that the UK cars had vacuum advance. It was all to do with the California smog regulations
Are you sure about this, Simon ? The US cars had retard, but I am almost sure that the UK cars had vacuum advance. It was all to do with the California smog regulations
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Marcusj1000
Topic author - Posts: 33
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#12
Hi Mike,
Yes the car had a bit of fuel in it (I guess 10 - 15 litres or so Must be over 10 years old) and I stupidly decided to just dilute it with 15 - 20 litres of fresh fuel to save a bit of money! False economy as all this fuel is now destined for the lawnmower! A stitch in time saves nine!
Anyhow, I will be refilling it with lovely, expensive fresh fuel before I next turn her over.
All this diagnosis is showing up lots of areas that are OK but not perfect, I shan't be trying to start her again until I am happy with it all. Hopefully sooner rather than later!
The story continues unfold!
Marcus.
Yes the car had a bit of fuel in it (I guess 10 - 15 litres or so Must be over 10 years old) and I stupidly decided to just dilute it with 15 - 20 litres of fresh fuel to save a bit of money! False economy as all this fuel is now destined for the lawnmower! A stitch in time saves nine!
Anyhow, I will be refilling it with lovely, expensive fresh fuel before I next turn her over.
All this diagnosis is showing up lots of areas that are OK but not perfect, I shan't be trying to start her again until I am happy with it all. Hopefully sooner rather than later!
The story continues unfold!
Marcus.
74 v12 2+2
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#13
Hi all,
Christopher, according to my research, the early Jag V12s, namely those equipped with carburettors, all had retard units as it was hard to get a smooth idle with those long and rather convoluted inlet tracts. The engine was always meant to have fuel injection, but the company developing the system (Brico, I think) pulled out rather late, leaving Jaguar with the four stromberg set up as the only option. The set up wasn't ideal, the tracts are not too bad once warm but they take a while to heat up and until they do, the majority of fuel introduced on choke is lost by condensing on the cold, long, curved tract walls. Hence some of the truly awful fuel consumption figures quoted for some draivers - I believe these were the drivers who did not drive the car far or long enough for the system to warm up and allow the choke to be fully disengaged for any length of time.
I know less about the injected cars that followed, but I believe early XJS cars had vacuum advance, whilst some later cars had retard mechanisms, this time dependent on market, emission laws and application.
My research is based on the aforementioned ReOpus site:
http://www.reopusignition.com/tests/dis ... vance.html
and this one:
http://www.pclarkson.plus.com/Ignition1.html
amongst others, and I believe these guys know what they are talking about.
Also, the original manual:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8496016/S3%2020_Electrical.pdf
refers to a retard type vacuum unit - see item 86.35.00 in the manual extract.
Regards,
Simon
Christopher, according to my research, the early Jag V12s, namely those equipped with carburettors, all had retard units as it was hard to get a smooth idle with those long and rather convoluted inlet tracts. The engine was always meant to have fuel injection, but the company developing the system (Brico, I think) pulled out rather late, leaving Jaguar with the four stromberg set up as the only option. The set up wasn't ideal, the tracts are not too bad once warm but they take a while to heat up and until they do, the majority of fuel introduced on choke is lost by condensing on the cold, long, curved tract walls. Hence some of the truly awful fuel consumption figures quoted for some draivers - I believe these were the drivers who did not drive the car far or long enough for the system to warm up and allow the choke to be fully disengaged for any length of time.
I know less about the injected cars that followed, but I believe early XJS cars had vacuum advance, whilst some later cars had retard mechanisms, this time dependent on market, emission laws and application.
My research is based on the aforementioned ReOpus site:
http://www.reopusignition.com/tests/dis ... vance.html
and this one:
http://www.pclarkson.plus.com/Ignition1.html
amongst others, and I believe these guys know what they are talking about.
Also, the original manual:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8496016/S3%2020_Electrical.pdf
refers to a retard type vacuum unit - see item 86.35.00 in the manual extract.
Regards,
Simon
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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Marcusj1000
Topic author - Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am
#14
Morning all,
I still havent been able to get to the car but have spent alot of time with my head in the manual and dong research on the web.
I have ordered a few parts to rule out some of the things that are an unknown and should be able to fit them next week, I will then also tackle the incorrect breather/vacuum pipework and setup the timing and carbs a bit more accurately.
The question of the day is about the carbs, I have previousely set them up to the manuals spec and then fine tuned by ear, this seemed good enough to get her running but I would like to get a more accurate solution.
Some time back I remember seeing a picture on this site of a DTI in the dashpot of each carb and I thought that it sounded like something I'd like to try. I cant now find where that thread is, does anyone know where the details of this setup are or how it went for the user?
Is this method more accurate that running some of the more standard systems that are available?
Once again, thanks for all your help!
Rewgards, Marcus.
I still havent been able to get to the car but have spent alot of time with my head in the manual and dong research on the web.
I have ordered a few parts to rule out some of the things that are an unknown and should be able to fit them next week, I will then also tackle the incorrect breather/vacuum pipework and setup the timing and carbs a bit more accurately.
The question of the day is about the carbs, I have previousely set them up to the manuals spec and then fine tuned by ear, this seemed good enough to get her running but I would like to get a more accurate solution.
Some time back I remember seeing a picture on this site of a DTI in the dashpot of each carb and I thought that it sounded like something I'd like to try. I cant now find where that thread is, does anyone know where the details of this setup are or how it went for the user?
Is this method more accurate that running some of the more standard systems that are available?
Once again, thanks for all your help!
Rewgards, Marcus.
74 v12 2+2
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#15
Hi,
Unfortunately, I think the tuning with DTIs was a part of a wonderful site posted by a guy called David Lacey in Malasia. The unfortunate part is that it no longer seems to be on the net. A couple of pages are still available in the knowledge base of this site, but that page isn't one of them. The idea which David suggested was to make some brass adaptors to replace the caps and damper mechanisms. The DTI heads fit to these adaptors and bear on the pistons moving up and down inside the dashpots and indicates their movement allowing the movement to be measured and compared. The difficult thing he found was identifying the thread size and type, I can't unfortunately remember what he found it to be. That said, I am unconvinced the system would be ideal, the DTIs need to be the same spring rating as they will influence the action of the pistons rising and falling and the influence needs to be identical on each. Also, as the brass adaptors replace the plastic caps and damper mechanisms, the dampers will not be operative and these are an important part of the system.
I guess you can balance the carbs in this manner, although the important thing to balance isn't the actual opening of the pistons; rather the amount of air flowing through them and this also depends upon engine condition - there is no guarantee that, just because the pistons have risen exactly the same amount, that airflow is identical in each case. I felt it better to use a flow meter and compare flow rates rather than throat opening, hence the flow meters I recommended in the previous post. David had a great site and I used much of his advice in my own restoration, this was one of the few things I wasn't too convinced about, although it is only personal opinion.
Regards,
Simon.
Unfortunately, I think the tuning with DTIs was a part of a wonderful site posted by a guy called David Lacey in Malasia. The unfortunate part is that it no longer seems to be on the net. A couple of pages are still available in the knowledge base of this site, but that page isn't one of them. The idea which David suggested was to make some brass adaptors to replace the caps and damper mechanisms. The DTI heads fit to these adaptors and bear on the pistons moving up and down inside the dashpots and indicates their movement allowing the movement to be measured and compared. The difficult thing he found was identifying the thread size and type, I can't unfortunately remember what he found it to be. That said, I am unconvinced the system would be ideal, the DTIs need to be the same spring rating as they will influence the action of the pistons rising and falling and the influence needs to be identical on each. Also, as the brass adaptors replace the plastic caps and damper mechanisms, the dampers will not be operative and these are an important part of the system.
I guess you can balance the carbs in this manner, although the important thing to balance isn't the actual opening of the pistons; rather the amount of air flowing through them and this also depends upon engine condition - there is no guarantee that, just because the pistons have risen exactly the same amount, that airflow is identical in each case. I felt it better to use a flow meter and compare flow rates rather than throat opening, hence the flow meters I recommended in the previous post. David had a great site and I used much of his advice in my own restoration, this was one of the few things I wasn't too convinced about, although it is only personal opinion.
Regards,
Simon.
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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#16
One of these would be better:
I have used the second one successfully to balance the E-Type SU's and the Elan's Stromberg's. I also have an SU tuning kit which has rods which fit into the damper holes so you can measure the rise and fall but I have to say they are pretty useless because it is air flow we are interested in.
This Franklin kit is on eBay at the moment which may suit you:
I have used the second one successfully to balance the E-Type SU's and the Elan's Stromberg's. I also have an SU tuning kit which has rods which fit into the damper holes so you can measure the rise and fall but I have to say they are pretty useless because it is air flow we are interested in.
This Franklin kit is on eBay at the moment which may suit you:
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
2024 Lexus LBX
Add your E-Type to our World Map: http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810
S1 OTS OSB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
2024 Lexus LBX
Add your E-Type to our World Map: http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810
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Marcusj1000
Topic author - Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am
#17
Hi Everyone,
As promised here is an update, better late than never! I went through and tested each ignition based component independently and all seemed OK, I then started inspecting the engine bay wiring loom. It looks like it has had various "modifications" in the past so I couldn't guarantee the quality of the work. Anyway after further inspection the connection of the coil wire under the heat-sink didn't feel quite right so I stripped it back and the spade terminal was dangling on by one thread. I repaired this and tested for a spark, to my relief I could see a very strong spark and when put back together she fired up perfectly. I then repaired the MOT fail points (split steering gaitor and fixed the leaky exhast) and booked the MOT. SHE PASSED!!!!!!!!!! So for the first time in my life I have a road legal e-type. Very happy! I still have a long list of things to do and I am not convinced that my carbs are set up quite right so I'll get a flow tester and do a proper job on them. After a few very careful miles I am getting a better idea of what needs to be done, the list is as follows........
The brakes feel strong and pull me up in a nice straight line however there seems to be excessive travel in the pedal unless I release and re-engage the pedal then it stands firm with very little travel. Could this be a servo problem or just requiring a re-bleed?
After a few miles the engine feels like it is misfiring ever so slightly with no engine load (constant speed, flat road) however if I dip the clutch the engine will rev freely. I think my car has had the reopus upgrade by the previous owner but not sure how to find out. It hasn't yet got so bad as to pull over or conk out........ yet....
I need to make sure all of my inlet manifold breather pipes are going to the correct places, as I still cant be sure where the tiny (approx 5mm) opposing exits run to, thanks for clearing up the big breather pipes Simon, the pictures were very helpful however I can't quite see the small pipes in these pics.
My ignition light doesn't turn off. The gauge on the dash is reading 12V and so far the battery hasn't gone flat, but I haven't done many miles in it.
They are all the mechanical faults, all that is left is to beautify the car, polish and touch up exterior. Re dye the leather, shampoo the carpets and re-clad the interior panels. Thanks again for everyones help with my problems so far. I'll try to get some pictures up when I have worked out how. Just in time for the sunshine!
As promised here is an update, better late than never! I went through and tested each ignition based component independently and all seemed OK, I then started inspecting the engine bay wiring loom. It looks like it has had various "modifications" in the past so I couldn't guarantee the quality of the work. Anyway after further inspection the connection of the coil wire under the heat-sink didn't feel quite right so I stripped it back and the spade terminal was dangling on by one thread. I repaired this and tested for a spark, to my relief I could see a very strong spark and when put back together she fired up perfectly. I then repaired the MOT fail points (split steering gaitor and fixed the leaky exhast) and booked the MOT. SHE PASSED!!!!!!!!!! So for the first time in my life I have a road legal e-type. Very happy! I still have a long list of things to do and I am not convinced that my carbs are set up quite right so I'll get a flow tester and do a proper job on them. After a few very careful miles I am getting a better idea of what needs to be done, the list is as follows........
The brakes feel strong and pull me up in a nice straight line however there seems to be excessive travel in the pedal unless I release and re-engage the pedal then it stands firm with very little travel. Could this be a servo problem or just requiring a re-bleed?
After a few miles the engine feels like it is misfiring ever so slightly with no engine load (constant speed, flat road) however if I dip the clutch the engine will rev freely. I think my car has had the reopus upgrade by the previous owner but not sure how to find out. It hasn't yet got so bad as to pull over or conk out........ yet....
I need to make sure all of my inlet manifold breather pipes are going to the correct places, as I still cant be sure where the tiny (approx 5mm) opposing exits run to, thanks for clearing up the big breather pipes Simon, the pictures were very helpful however I can't quite see the small pipes in these pics.
My ignition light doesn't turn off. The gauge on the dash is reading 12V and so far the battery hasn't gone flat, but I haven't done many miles in it.
They are all the mechanical faults, all that is left is to beautify the car, polish and touch up exterior. Re dye the leather, shampoo the carpets and re-clad the interior panels. Thanks again for everyones help with my problems so far. I'll try to get some pictures up when I have worked out how. Just in time for the sunshine!
74 v12 2+2
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#18
Hi Marcus,
Congratulations on getting the car road legal, I well remember the experience myself, having waited 30 plus years for the experience and after eight years of restoration, my car was finally road legal six months ago. It was a fantastic experience and one on which to build.
I will try to take/find better pictures of the pipework to the carburettors. I also had a think about the problems you have with the charge light, because I had a similar problem. I went into a lot of investigation into the voltage regulator, cleaning up contacts and checking voltage values, there was a wonderful article about it on the net, another of the excellent series by David Lacey I?m afraid, which sadly has disappeared now; but I think I actually downloaded and printed it ? I?ll have a look. You can adjust the output of the regulator and it was amazing how much crud I found in there. I tinned all the terminals and re-soldered some of the joints, which looked pretty dry. I could of course have bought a new one, but they were expensive and hard to get hold of over here, I think though, that they are available in UK.
After all that however, I did not fix the problem and it was looking likely that either the regulator or the new alternator I had bought was the culprit. I rang the guys that sold the alternator to me, to see if they had any clues or any new regulators and was told that there are two versions of the V12 Alternator ? one which has an earth through the alternator case (this type is original fit for the cars), the other does not, and requires an earth to be run. The terminal for the earth is clearly identified on the case and it is perfectly OK to run an earth wire from this terminal to one of the bolts holding the alternator together, thus making the alternator into one which actually earths through the alternator case ? apart from a short length of wire between the earth and the alternator body (use fairly thick wire), the alternator still appears normal. If you have a replacement alternator, or if the wiring has broken down inside your old item, this might cure your problem, it certainly cured mine. Find the terminal (I can post a picture if you like - currently at the wrong computer), then test continuity to earth - if there is none, this might be your problem.
Other possibilities are that the brushes or diode pack of the alternator have failed, a quick search on ebay revealed several vendors selling both complete units and components for the alternators, mainly in the US, but postage shouldn?t be too bad for something as small as brushes or diode packs. Try searching with the terms Butec (original alternator manufacturer), Jaguar and V12 in the search box and you should find some options.
Incidentally, once fixed, you would expect the voltmeter to read around 14 volts (ideally14.4v) when charging (car running and charge light out), of course this depends on the accuracy of the gauge. It is possible to adjust the output of the voltage regulator and if this output is too low, the symptoms you describe will exist, but there is no reason I can think for this to change unless someone has interfered, there is a problem as described above with one of the components, or, just maybe, dirt and corrosion in the regulator have taken a hand in the proceedings.
For other items on your list, it is perfectly possible to re-clad all trim panels with a sheet of leatherette of the correct colour, easy, cheap and satisfying.
As to the brakes, sounds most likely to be air in the system ? try a suction or pressure bleed kit, otherwise get an assistant to pump up the pressure in the system with a few strokes, then release the bleed nipple while they hold the pedal down, close it while the pedal is still down, then repeat several times for each nipple, start at the rear (either side) then do the front right nipple, finally the front left, then repeat. The system is a little hard to bleed. I did mine three times before being satisfied, using first a suction system to fill it and initial bleed, then finished with the assistant method.
Not sure how you tell the difference between Reopus and original system, even though I actually had mine upgraded ? they look identical. I do know the Reopus system has been upgraded (now version 4?) and Dave Curry ? who originated the system in the first place in New Zealand, will update your system if asked ? not sure if the UK sellers do the same. However, maybe tuning the carbs will cure your problem, I always thought the Opus system just died when it got hot, but have no personal experience of this.
Regards and good luck,
Simon
Congratulations on getting the car road legal, I well remember the experience myself, having waited 30 plus years for the experience and after eight years of restoration, my car was finally road legal six months ago. It was a fantastic experience and one on which to build.
I will try to take/find better pictures of the pipework to the carburettors. I also had a think about the problems you have with the charge light, because I had a similar problem. I went into a lot of investigation into the voltage regulator, cleaning up contacts and checking voltage values, there was a wonderful article about it on the net, another of the excellent series by David Lacey I?m afraid, which sadly has disappeared now; but I think I actually downloaded and printed it ? I?ll have a look. You can adjust the output of the regulator and it was amazing how much crud I found in there. I tinned all the terminals and re-soldered some of the joints, which looked pretty dry. I could of course have bought a new one, but they were expensive and hard to get hold of over here, I think though, that they are available in UK.
After all that however, I did not fix the problem and it was looking likely that either the regulator or the new alternator I had bought was the culprit. I rang the guys that sold the alternator to me, to see if they had any clues or any new regulators and was told that there are two versions of the V12 Alternator ? one which has an earth through the alternator case (this type is original fit for the cars), the other does not, and requires an earth to be run. The terminal for the earth is clearly identified on the case and it is perfectly OK to run an earth wire from this terminal to one of the bolts holding the alternator together, thus making the alternator into one which actually earths through the alternator case ? apart from a short length of wire between the earth and the alternator body (use fairly thick wire), the alternator still appears normal. If you have a replacement alternator, or if the wiring has broken down inside your old item, this might cure your problem, it certainly cured mine. Find the terminal (I can post a picture if you like - currently at the wrong computer), then test continuity to earth - if there is none, this might be your problem.
Other possibilities are that the brushes or diode pack of the alternator have failed, a quick search on ebay revealed several vendors selling both complete units and components for the alternators, mainly in the US, but postage shouldn?t be too bad for something as small as brushes or diode packs. Try searching with the terms Butec (original alternator manufacturer), Jaguar and V12 in the search box and you should find some options.
Incidentally, once fixed, you would expect the voltmeter to read around 14 volts (ideally14.4v) when charging (car running and charge light out), of course this depends on the accuracy of the gauge. It is possible to adjust the output of the voltage regulator and if this output is too low, the symptoms you describe will exist, but there is no reason I can think for this to change unless someone has interfered, there is a problem as described above with one of the components, or, just maybe, dirt and corrosion in the regulator have taken a hand in the proceedings.
For other items on your list, it is perfectly possible to re-clad all trim panels with a sheet of leatherette of the correct colour, easy, cheap and satisfying.
As to the brakes, sounds most likely to be air in the system ? try a suction or pressure bleed kit, otherwise get an assistant to pump up the pressure in the system with a few strokes, then release the bleed nipple while they hold the pedal down, close it while the pedal is still down, then repeat several times for each nipple, start at the rear (either side) then do the front right nipple, finally the front left, then repeat. The system is a little hard to bleed. I did mine three times before being satisfied, using first a suction system to fill it and initial bleed, then finished with the assistant method.
Not sure how you tell the difference between Reopus and original system, even though I actually had mine upgraded ? they look identical. I do know the Reopus system has been upgraded (now version 4?) and Dave Curry ? who originated the system in the first place in New Zealand, will update your system if asked ? not sure if the UK sellers do the same. However, maybe tuning the carbs will cure your problem, I always thought the Opus system just died when it got hot, but have no personal experience of this.
Regards and good luck,
Simon
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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Marcusj1000
Topic author - Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 am
#19
Hi Simon,
Thanks for that, I hadn't realised the output of the alternator was adjustable but to be honest I haven't looked into the problem at all yet. I have just plugged everything in and left it. I'll read up on that and it's very possible that there could be some bad contacts, thanks for the tips.
It's very tempting at this stage to spend my allocated "Jag time" polishing and beautifying her but I'm really keen to get her mechanically sorted before I get the Auto-Glym out! Besides, she looks great even with dull paint, speckled chrome and faded/grubby interior!
Marcus.
Thanks for that, I hadn't realised the output of the alternator was adjustable but to be honest I haven't looked into the problem at all yet. I have just plugged everything in and left it. I'll read up on that and it's very possible that there could be some bad contacts, thanks for the tips.
It's very tempting at this stage to spend my allocated "Jag time" polishing and beautifying her but I'm really keen to get her mechanically sorted before I get the Auto-Glym out! Besides, she looks great even with dull paint, speckled chrome and faded/grubby interior!
Marcus.
74 v12 2+2
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#20
Hi Marcus,
I wouldn't say the output is actually adjustable, but it can be set using the regulator, once set, it should not need to be disturbed.
Regards,
Simon
I wouldn't say the output is actually adjustable, but it can be set using the regulator, once set, it should not need to be disturbed.
Regards,
Simon
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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