Define the spacer into the hub

[MLBS3V12]

I'm on the IRS of my car : stripping the old paint, changing the bearings and seals.
I've changed the 2 bearings ( a small one and a bigger ) and I have to define the thickness from the spacer to be used. The original one is not enough thick and I do not have the "JD15" tool.
How to do? I dont want to buy a complete set of spacers to find the good one.
Thanks for your feedback.

Michel

[Simonpfhc]

Hi Michel,

I've recently finished rebuilding the hubs on mine. You should have a spacer for each side - I certainly did. I just used both spacers on a single hub to get a decent reading.

Hopefully you do have two spacers??

Cheers.

[christopher storey]

When you say the original spacer is not thick enough do you mean that you have no hub end float, or that you have too much ? If you have too much end float , you need a thinner spacer not a thicker one . If this is the case, measure your end float with this spacer in position , deduct .004 inch ( 0.1mm) from the end float, and then deduct the result from the thickness of your current spacer. With a spacer of that dimension substituted for your present one, you should then have 0.1 mm end float

I know that this sounds as if it is wrong, but the thicker the spacer you use, the greater the end float produced

[MLBS3V12]

I do not have end float. I'll try the way from Simon to get a larger one and be able to get a reading and then define the one I need.
thank you all.

Michel

[PhilBell]

Hello

I have play/endfloat in my offside rear wheelbearing. I'm still not clear whether it's essential to use the Churchill spacer tool J.15 as specified in the Jaguar manual to check endfloat, or if there's some other way. Anyone able to clarify?

Also, how can I tell if the movement is simply excess endfloat that can be adjusted out with different spacers, or wear that necessitates replacing the bearing?

Phil
1962 fhc

[Durango2k]

JagWaugh made a J15 brass part which I now have.

I have finished my hubs, and JagWaugh (Andrew) said I should then sent it to the next guy needing it.

Please PM him, and ask wether I should send it, then tell me so, and I will send it to you for free.

Andrew?s "must- fulfill" condition was that any recipient will send it to the next one asking for free, after finishing own work in reasonable time, that?s it.

It?s a "public domain useage" model....

Carsten

[Dave K]

It tells you how to set up the bearings in the hub very accurately in the 'Practical classics mag, that was written by Colin Ford when he did the 4.2 FHC restoration.
If you want it I'll scan it and email it to you.
I haven't got a scanner at home so you would have to wait until I go back to work on Friday.

Dave

[christopher storey]

Phil : the bearing condition can be assessed up to a point by ear - if it is quiet when the hub is rotated, then you are probably ok . If, however, there is any hint of a grinding noise, then the bearing is almost certainly shot. You can also examine the bearing with the hub carrier off the car and the races thoroughly degreased - what you are looking for is any scuff or other marks on the rollers, anything jammed in the cage ( you can get stones, bits of grit etc in there ) , any damage to the cage etc. Any sign of these or any other anomaly requires a new bearing set . If your present washer is not thick enough to give you any float at all , then either you can use a second washer from the other side - but this will produce rather a lot of end float which can be difficult to measure accurately , or else use say a 20 thou washer of appropriate diameter as a second washer, and calculate from there . It's one of those jobs which is hard to describe, but once you've done it a couple of times , it will seem ( relatively ) simple !

[Woolfi]

I hope this helps.
Regards Wolfgang Gatza

[christopher storey]

Two things I didn't like about that were

1.IMHO the correct way to use a drift for this purpose is to go radially round the circumference of the bearing rather than alternately hammering at 180 degrees

2. Never EVER wrap your fingers round the shaft of the torque wrnch when applying the sort of torque we are talking about here, to something loosely held on a bench. It is the quick way to fractured fingers

[Dave K]

The way I was taught to fit or remove a bearing during my apprenticeship with the coal board was 12 o'clock 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock 3 o'clock alternating through 180 degrees.
Use a mild steel drift only.

Dave

[PhilBell]

In the end I took the rear hub to TRGB where their Jaguar expert found just 0.005in of end float, so well within Jaguar tolerances. I did notice that the hub nut wasn't terribly difficult to undo, which considering it should be at 140lb ft was surprising. Refitted at the correct torque and now all is well.

[PhilBell]

In the end I took the hub assembly to TRGB where their Jaguar man found just 0.005in of endfloat ? well within Jaguar tolerances. I did notice that the hub nut wasn't terribly hard to undo, which could have been causing my perception of play. Refitted at 140lb ft and all is well.
Onto the next set of challenges

[JagWaugh]

Carsten,

Send the tool. It is indeed a public domain model. The only rules are:

1) Don't break or modify it.
2) Keep it as long as you need, when you are done you pay the postage to the next guy.
3) Keep me informed about who has it.

I think I send Carsten an email with usage instructions, but I can't remember, and haven't got access to my mail archives at the moment.

The tool has a bore and some threaded rod and washers IIRC (Carsten: Did you have to make these bits, or did I fabricate them? - I can't remember whatever the case, please include all the bits to be able to use it).

To use it, start by measuring the depth of the step just to be sure that it is whatever I marked on it. then assemble (without grease, without oil seal) as the shop manual says, fit the threaded rod and tighten the nuts snugly (say 1/8 turn) past them making contact. Fit your DTI/DI and measure, repeat a couple of times, turning by 90 degrees. If everything is right you should get 4 pretty consistent values, if you don't you've either got some swarf or dirt trapped somewhere, or your DI/DTI mount isn't solid enough. Order your shims, fit them, check your float with the shims in, wait for the next guy who want's to use it to contact me, or you, or whoever.

Andrew

[PhilBell]

This is a long overdue update but I discovered that you don't need the special Churchill tool to set the initial endfloat, a 0.150in spacer shim will do the job.

[PhilBell]

At MoT time my local classic-friendly tester thought one of my rear wheelbearings was boarderline for excess play. Rocking the wheel myself at various positions seemed to back this up. So I removed the hub along with the halfshaft and measured the endfloat with my dial gauge. The result, after giving the shaft a tap with copper mallet to settle it, was 0.003in. I repeated the measurement after rotating the halfshaft and levering the shaft at different positions, just to be sure.
The Jaguar manual says 0.002-0.006 and that shims are in 0.003 increments. So my bearing is close to the middle of the range and a thinner shim would take out all of the play, which I definitely don't want. I couldn't detect any play between wheel and hub when I was rocking it. Maybe the amount of play I can feel while rocking the wheel is normal for correctly set up bearings, which were new a couple of years ago.

[mgcjag]

Hi Phil....similar topic just being discussed on JagLovers forum.....over the years there has been lots of discussion on rear hub end float....the same hub and bearings were used across the E type range...In the Jaguar service manual covering S1/S2 cars the end float is given a .002- .006 with a nominal .004in However in a later S3 manual the endfloat is given as .001- .003 with a nominal .002in so Jaguar must have revised their thinking on these bearings......However it has also been discussed and sugested (reccomended) by some that Tapered roller bearings as in front and rear hub bearings should actually be set up with preload.....Personaly I now set my hubs at 0 end float.....this is not a reccomendation but something to be considered after reading posts on the subject

[angelw]

There has been tomes written on the subject of design principles relating to bearing set up; way too much to discuss here in depth. However, the primary benefits resulting from preload bearing set up includes but are not limited to:

• enhanced stiffness
• reduced noise levels
• improved shaft guidance
• compensation for wear and settling
• extended bearing service life

Looking at the E Type, where End Float is specified for the Taper Roller Bearings used in the Rear Hubs, immediately up stream of this arrangement you have a differential that also employs Taper Roller Bearings, all under pre load. In this case, the Input Shaft (pinion shaft) is running at least 2.88 (readily available high ratio for the Salisbury diff) times the RPM of the Output Shafts and hence the Hubs. Who would dare not use preload for the differential bearings? Rather hard to make an argument for End Float.

Regards,

Bill

[PhilBell]

That's interesting. Your argument for preload makes sense to me but now I have to balance that against reports of hub failure caused by bearings assembled without the specified end float. Could those instances be a result of misattribution of blame for failures caused by other factors?

[christopher storey]

Pre-loading the hub bearings is directly contrary to Jaguar's specification and is bound to increase the heat produced in the bearing . I don't wish to be rude but what is this fascination for knowing better than the manufacturers ? It crops up time and again in this forum

Incidentally, rocking the wheel is not a reliable method of assessing end float, because the various tolerances build up and give an aggregate picture