Hi all
Right - I think I might be getting somewhere with this - I have read all of the available material on this forum and have looked at Longstone Tyres site + MWS. All great stuff and I have concluded that:
For the sake of argument, if a 6 inch wheel was chosen, my understanding is that a Michelin 185 XV SVR 15 could be fitted to that size of wheel or a Michelin 205/70 VR XWX.
It appears that the Michelin tyres are favoured by a number of you - Which would be the better combination? - 185 SVR 15 or 205 VR XWX and exuse me for being a bit air headed - why?
Would love to go borrani but the cost is a bit mmm - MWS could however be a false economy if the spokes loosen over time on the MWS wheels. Still undecided on that one.
Sorry to be a pain but naturally I don't want to get it wrong.
Simon Templar
Wheels & Tyres for the Series 1
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Simon Templar
Topic author - Posts: 34
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#2
Simon
The XVS's can be fitted to 5", 5.5" and 6" rims without problem. The difference will be a stiffening of the side walls as the tyre 'distorts' on the larger rim. A lot of people recommend the Veredestein's on 5.5" wheels for this very reason. The XWX was standard fitment on S3's which had 6" wheels so expect a good ride but with heavier steering. You could fit the XVS to your existing wheels and migrate later to 6" if the need is still there - tyres will still fit.
Strongly suggest you speak to Dougal at Longstone as he can advise you on the pro's and con's of each combination based on your driving style and expectations. Longstone sell MWS wires anyway so they can do you a deal on wheels and tyres. Personally I would put the XWX's on 6" wheels but Dougal knows far more than me. They are based in Bawtry, just off the A1 so worth a drive up for a chat. If you buy they will put your old wheels in the post back to you. They put the XVS's on my car for me to try before I bought to prove a point.
My MWS spokes were loose after 18,000 miles but maybe I should have checked them regularly and tightened spokes as and when. No getting away from it though the MWS spokes do come loose (but then so do the original Jaguar items). Spoke to a Classic Car dealer about it last week who said the same and we wondered whether fitting modern sticky rubber was putting too much loading on what is a 75 year old design, presumably why they are not fitted to new cars today. Borrani's are more than twice the price of the MWS but they are iconic, beautiful and hardy.
By the way what tyres do you have on at the moment?
Speak to Dougal first thing tomorrow before making any decision.
David
PS Did I mention speak to Dougal?
The XVS's can be fitted to 5", 5.5" and 6" rims without problem. The difference will be a stiffening of the side walls as the tyre 'distorts' on the larger rim. A lot of people recommend the Veredestein's on 5.5" wheels for this very reason. The XWX was standard fitment on S3's which had 6" wheels so expect a good ride but with heavier steering. You could fit the XVS to your existing wheels and migrate later to 6" if the need is still there - tyres will still fit.
Strongly suggest you speak to Dougal at Longstone as he can advise you on the pro's and con's of each combination based on your driving style and expectations. Longstone sell MWS wires anyway so they can do you a deal on wheels and tyres. Personally I would put the XWX's on 6" wheels but Dougal knows far more than me. They are based in Bawtry, just off the A1 so worth a drive up for a chat. If you buy they will put your old wheels in the post back to you. They put the XVS's on my car for me to try before I bought to prove a point.
My MWS spokes were loose after 18,000 miles but maybe I should have checked them regularly and tightened spokes as and when. No getting away from it though the MWS spokes do come loose (but then so do the original Jaguar items). Spoke to a Classic Car dealer about it last week who said the same and we wondered whether fitting modern sticky rubber was putting too much loading on what is a 75 year old design, presumably why they are not fitted to new cars today. Borrani's are more than twice the price of the MWS but they are iconic, beautiful and hardy.
By the way what tyres do you have on at the moment?
Speak to Dougal first thing tomorrow before making any decision.
David
PS Did I mention speak to Dougal?
David Jones
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Simon Templar
Topic author - Posts: 34
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#3
David,
My existing tyres need changing on age grounds - the date code tells me they are 10 years old - bags of tread but don't want to take the risk - they are Goodyears.
My Jaguar wires have some loose spokes that have been tightened previously so these two factors have prompted me to think about the change. Without question, wires will have a shorter lifespan than modern alloys etc but they really are the only wheel that suits the E Type.- I did look at the D type steel racing wheels but whilst they would be very long lived with none of the problems associated with wires, I,m not convinced they look right, particularly on a white car - I guess a darker car may look OK with them.
I'll speak to Dougal tomorrow and get his opinion - Vredestein tyres look very good value but are they any good?
Simon Templar
PS Yes you did mention Dougal - but only three times! :)
My existing tyres need changing on age grounds - the date code tells me they are 10 years old - bags of tread but don't want to take the risk - they are Goodyears.
My Jaguar wires have some loose spokes that have been tightened previously so these two factors have prompted me to think about the change. Without question, wires will have a shorter lifespan than modern alloys etc but they really are the only wheel that suits the E Type.- I did look at the D type steel racing wheels but whilst they would be very long lived with none of the problems associated with wires, I,m not convinced they look right, particularly on a white car - I guess a darker car may look OK with them.
I'll speak to Dougal tomorrow and get his opinion - Vredestein tyres look very good value but are they any good?
Simon Templar
PS Yes you did mention Dougal - but only three times! :)
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Car-Nut
#4
Simon Templar wrote:
PS Yes you did mention Dougal - but only three times! :)
Sounds like someone had to much red wine with there roast beef
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#5
Simon
Avoid the D-Type replica wheels like the plague - they are made to a (low) price and finding a complete set that are true is next to impossible. The ones with square cut outs are prone to cracking at the corners of the holes and the others tend to wobble down the road. Hardly surprising as demand is low and the market price sensitive. Ask CMC about it! The MWS wires are made, in quantity, to the original Dunlop design so are actually a very good product. Unfortunately the original design was prone to broken and loose spokes so therein lies the problem. SNG sell the Dayton wires which are made in even larger quantities, have a huge following in the US and definitely worth looking at and comparing to the MWS ones. Turino (based in Manchester) make Borrani style wheels at about ?100 a corner cheaper than the Milan made items.
Veredestein tyres have excellent reviews from all that have them (mostly US owners it seems) and the price/quality balance is good. Only criticism I have heard is that after four fast track laps they overheated and lost grip. Not a problem on the road however so certainly worth considering. Michelin's are top of the pile when it comes to quality and performance so XVS's on your existing wheels would probably be a better idea than Verdestein's on a new set of MWS. Kind of depends on the state of your wheels. As to prices (from memory):
Veredestein 185's - ?90
Michelin XVS - ?167
Michelin XWX - ?200
Dayton wire wheel - ?180
MWS wire wheel - ?250
Turino alloy rim wire wheel - ?550
Borrani - ?650
Multiply by four and add VAT!
David
Avoid the D-Type replica wheels like the plague - they are made to a (low) price and finding a complete set that are true is next to impossible. The ones with square cut outs are prone to cracking at the corners of the holes and the others tend to wobble down the road. Hardly surprising as demand is low and the market price sensitive. Ask CMC about it! The MWS wires are made, in quantity, to the original Dunlop design so are actually a very good product. Unfortunately the original design was prone to broken and loose spokes so therein lies the problem. SNG sell the Dayton wires which are made in even larger quantities, have a huge following in the US and definitely worth looking at and comparing to the MWS ones. Turino (based in Manchester) make Borrani style wheels at about ?100 a corner cheaper than the Milan made items.
Veredestein tyres have excellent reviews from all that have them (mostly US owners it seems) and the price/quality balance is good. Only criticism I have heard is that after four fast track laps they overheated and lost grip. Not a problem on the road however so certainly worth considering. Michelin's are top of the pile when it comes to quality and performance so XVS's on your existing wheels would probably be a better idea than Verdestein's on a new set of MWS. Kind of depends on the state of your wheels. As to prices (from memory):
Veredestein 185's - ?90
Michelin XVS - ?167
Michelin XWX - ?200
Dayton wire wheel - ?180
MWS wire wheel - ?250
Turino alloy rim wire wheel - ?550
Borrani - ?650
Multiply by four and add VAT!
David
Last edited by Heuer on Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Jones
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Moeregaard
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#6
The stainless Dayton wheels are definitely worth a look. I bought a set of these with 185-15 Avons, from British Wire Wheel in Fresno, California, back in 1993 and was very pleased. I had zero troubles in five years of regular use. I've only seen one spoke breakage and this was with a set installed on a friend's Healey 3000. He tends to beat the car like a rented mule on occasion, so I would consider his situation extreme.
Mark (Moe) Shipley
Former owner '66FHC, #1E32208
Former owner '65FHC, #1E30036
Planning on getting E-Type No. 3 as soon as possible....
Former owner '66FHC, #1E32208
Former owner '65FHC, #1E30036
Planning on getting E-Type No. 3 as soon as possible....
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MarkE
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#7
Time for a bit of controversy to be injected into the wheel / tyre argument, I feel!
Wire wheel technology was at the limit of its capability in the early 60s. Most of the British cars that used them had their design roots back in the 50s?and earlier. The wires were used and the suspension designed around cross-ply tyres, which provided less grip and would breakaway earlier than the new-fangled radials when they came out. But of course, everybody used radials as the 60s.
Chrome plating something makes it very brittle, making a chromed spoke much more likely to snap than a painted spoke. Stainless steel is even more brittle than chromed steel. You?ll notice that on stainless steel exhaust manifolds, most have a mild steel plate which bolts the manifold onto the head for that reason.
Tyre technology has evolved considerably in the past 15 years, and I would suggest that it is now beyond the capability of the wire wheel to maintain integrity if used to its maximum capability. The lateral forces imposed on the wheel using modern sticky rubber can be considerably higher than the wheel was designed for, and there?s a real danger of the wheel failing. This is especially true if the wheel is a few years old, potentially with a few very slightly loose spokes or slightly out of true.
The serious racing E Types in the 60s didn?t use wire wheels for this very reason, as even with the non-sticky compounds being used, the constant high cornering forces on a race track would cause wheel failure before the end of the race.
Just thinking about that lot leads me to believe that putting on the latest, stickiest rubber is not the thing to do with an E Type. If you use the car to the limit of adhesion, you will be over-stretching the capability of the wheels. If you don?t use it to the limit, then what?s the point in having them? Far better to have the wheel protected by a lesser limit of adhesion, and probably more fun can be had at a lower speed.
And just a final thought?the wire wheels are a service item, they never have been fit and forget. In talking with guys who worked on these cars in the 60s, it was very common for a wheel to require some work to be done on it in a normal service, and often a wheel or two had to be replaced?this is when the cars were new to 5 years old! That leads me to think that a professional refurbish or a new set of wheels may just be required , as well as a new set of tyres, every 10 years if not before, depending on how it?s used. The problem may just be the unseen metal fatigue in those brittle spokes!
Now, where can I get a set of cross-plys for my 6 inch rims??!!
Mark
Wire wheel technology was at the limit of its capability in the early 60s. Most of the British cars that used them had their design roots back in the 50s?and earlier. The wires were used and the suspension designed around cross-ply tyres, which provided less grip and would breakaway earlier than the new-fangled radials when they came out. But of course, everybody used radials as the 60s.
Chrome plating something makes it very brittle, making a chromed spoke much more likely to snap than a painted spoke. Stainless steel is even more brittle than chromed steel. You?ll notice that on stainless steel exhaust manifolds, most have a mild steel plate which bolts the manifold onto the head for that reason.
Tyre technology has evolved considerably in the past 15 years, and I would suggest that it is now beyond the capability of the wire wheel to maintain integrity if used to its maximum capability. The lateral forces imposed on the wheel using modern sticky rubber can be considerably higher than the wheel was designed for, and there?s a real danger of the wheel failing. This is especially true if the wheel is a few years old, potentially with a few very slightly loose spokes or slightly out of true.
The serious racing E Types in the 60s didn?t use wire wheels for this very reason, as even with the non-sticky compounds being used, the constant high cornering forces on a race track would cause wheel failure before the end of the race.
Just thinking about that lot leads me to believe that putting on the latest, stickiest rubber is not the thing to do with an E Type. If you use the car to the limit of adhesion, you will be over-stretching the capability of the wheels. If you don?t use it to the limit, then what?s the point in having them? Far better to have the wheel protected by a lesser limit of adhesion, and probably more fun can be had at a lower speed.
And just a final thought?the wire wheels are a service item, they never have been fit and forget. In talking with guys who worked on these cars in the 60s, it was very common for a wheel to require some work to be done on it in a normal service, and often a wheel or two had to be replaced?this is when the cars were new to 5 years old! That leads me to think that a professional refurbish or a new set of wheels may just be required , as well as a new set of tyres, every 10 years if not before, depending on how it?s used. The problem may just be the unseen metal fatigue in those brittle spokes!
Now, where can I get a set of cross-plys for my 6 inch rims??!!
Mark
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#8
Longstone of course. They do a range of widths beyond the 6.40 designed for 5" wheels.MarkE wrote:
Now, where can I get a set of cross-plys for my 6 inch rims??!!
Mark
Just been reading the article by Andrew Turvey in the Dec 2005 (Issue 13) of The E-Type magazine and the subsequent article by Dougal Cawley in the Aug 2007 (issue 33). Andrew argues "that for a better feel, improved handling and the 'Emma Peel look' fit the 185 tyres onto six inch rims. This will give improved side-wall support and allow a slight increase in tyre pressure. The result is more grip, feel and predictability". Dougal points out the contact area on a 185 tyre is 4.5" wide whilst on a 205 it is 8" so no wonder the steering gets heavy. Also very bad news to fit 205 tyres on a 5" rim - "Jelly on a plate".
So there you go Mark - put some XVS 185's on those 6" wheels and you should have motoring nirvana. Just a shame I did not read that article before I sold you those wheels - could have saved myself a lot of money and got the ride/handling I was looking for.
But to get to Simon's original question: if you want wider wheels buy 6", fit Michelin XVS 185's and run at 34-36 psi.
David
Last edited by Heuer on Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
David Jones
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MarkE
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#9
How about 185s on the front and 205s on the back?!
If you had found out this information before, you wouldn't have had the love affair with those little Italian beauties!
And just look how well your wheels suit my car...they set off the black coachwork a treat. There aren't many cars where a good looking wheel enhances the underbonnet appearance as well.
Mark
If you had found out this information before, you wouldn't have had the love affair with those little Italian beauties!
And just look how well your wheels suit my car...they set off the black coachwork a treat. There aren't many cars where a good looking wheel enhances the underbonnet appearance as well.
Mark
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#10
Unsettling I would say! Not least because the 205's are an inch lower.MarkE wrote:How about 185s on the front and 205s on the back?!
Thanks for the pictures. Satan!
David
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Simon Templar
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#11
Great comments one and all.
Mark's comments re the brittle nature of Stainless & Chrome is interesting - Does this mean painted steel is a better option longer term? Do they look OK.
I had concluded that if I do not want to lose to much feel the Michelin 185's on a 6 inch rim would be the best compromise given the tyre footprint. - that is until I spoke to Dougal at Longstone who felt the 205 michelin would be better on the 6 inch.
Simon Templar
PS Just going for a lie down in a darkened room
Mark's comments re the brittle nature of Stainless & Chrome is interesting - Does this mean painted steel is a better option longer term? Do they look OK.
I had concluded that if I do not want to lose to much feel the Michelin 185's on a 6 inch rim would be the best compromise given the tyre footprint. - that is until I spoke to Dougal at Longstone who felt the 205 michelin would be better on the 6 inch.
Simon Templar
PS Just going for a lie down in a darkened room
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#12
Simon
The painted wheels look pretty dismal in my opinion besides which the chrome and stainless wheels abound and I have never heard of a catastrophic failure caused by metal fatigue or brittleness. The SS and chrome wheels do look different but the chrome gets my vote. Let's do the maths:
1. Buy a set of 4 MWS chrome wires - ?1,000
2. Drive 18,000 miles up Alpine pass and down dale at all speeds
3. Return to MWS for full service - ?400
4. Go back to 2 and repeat
This is exactly what I did, well at least until Dougal got his hands on me!
So the decision is simple - decide on wheel width, take Dougal's advice.
Mark's comments on the durability of the various steels was in the context of modern sticky rubber I believe not when fitted with period tyres.
David
The painted wheels look pretty dismal in my opinion besides which the chrome and stainless wheels abound and I have never heard of a catastrophic failure caused by metal fatigue or brittleness. The SS and chrome wheels do look different but the chrome gets my vote. Let's do the maths:
1. Buy a set of 4 MWS chrome wires - ?1,000
2. Drive 18,000 miles up Alpine pass and down dale at all speeds
3. Return to MWS for full service - ?400
4. Go back to 2 and repeat
This is exactly what I did, well at least until Dougal got his hands on me!
So the decision is simple - decide on wheel width, take Dougal's advice.
Mark's comments on the durability of the various steels was in the context of modern sticky rubber I believe not when fitted with period tyres.
David
David Jones
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Simon Templar
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#13
David,
Many thanks for that - pretty much decided now.
Thank goodness for this forum - would have been struggling somewhat had i not found it.
Simon Templar
Many thanks for that - pretty much decided now.
Thank goodness for this forum - would have been struggling somewhat had i not found it.
Simon Templar
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#14
That Series 1 of yours is looking good Mark.
Andy
Andy
1966 2+2 MOD Conversion
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MarkE
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#15
Thanks Andy, but it's only because it's done zero miles since a nut and bolt restoration. Currently up in CMC for a full trim (red interior...should look good with the black and chrome) and final fettling for the road...can't wait.
Black does look stunning when just polished, but 10 minutes later, with the cat walking over it, every pawprint shows up. Went into the garage on the weekend to find a duck perched on the bonnet! The joys of living in the country.
Mark
Black does look stunning when just polished, but 10 minutes later, with the cat walking over it, every pawprint shows up. Went into the garage on the weekend to find a duck perched on the bonnet! The joys of living in the country.
Mark
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#16
Just be thankful it wasn't a sheep sat on the bonnet!
I did once find that mice had nested in the front compartment of my 911 - the little blighters had climbed up the lead from the battery conditioner, squeezed under the slightly-ajar front hood, and made themselves comfy in my new trunk carpet!!!!
I did once find that mice had nested in the front compartment of my 911 - the little blighters had climbed up the lead from the battery conditioner, squeezed under the slightly-ajar front hood, and made themselves comfy in my new trunk carpet!!!!
John '62 S1 OTS (now sold)
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MarkE
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#17
David, now you've added the picture of Emma...this one's for you.
You have a perfect space in the garage for an Elan to keep the E and fast Beetle company...you know it makes sense.
John, Mice are my constant nightmare...wiring looms and leather seats are their favourite snack. I did invest in a Carcoon to protect one car and see how it went...the cats soon found that it made an excellent trampoline and burst it within 10 minutes. The sheep are just too lazy to jump.
Mark
You have a perfect space in the garage for an Elan to keep the E and fast Beetle company...you know it makes sense.
John, Mice are my constant nightmare...wiring looms and leather seats are their favourite snack. I did invest in a Carcoon to protect one car and see how it went...the cats soon found that it made an excellent trampoline and burst it within 10 minutes. The sheep are just too lazy to jump.
Mark
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#18
I cannot store anything "chewable" in the attic of my garage - metal only. Initially I tried mousetraps and poison but they breed faster than I could catch 'em or poison 'em. I had to build a mouseproof "strongroom" in the attic of the main house to keep papers, fabrics, and soft bits of cars - so far it has worked for about 9 years. This winter they found the lounger cushions for the garden furniture.......
I did once hear about a 911 which died because mice had nested on top of the engine inside the cooling fan shroud - apparently they got in through the heater air dump valves (David will know what I mean) and the engine wasn't being cooled properly.......
I did once hear about a 911 which died because mice had nested on top of the engine inside the cooling fan shroud - apparently they got in through the heater air dump valves (David will know what I mean) and the engine wasn't being cooled properly.......
John '62 S1 OTS (now sold)
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#19
Mark
After our conversation I am currently reading the Mike Taylor book on the Lotus Elan.
It also happens Sherwood Restorations have a genuine 26R in at the moment - just sold it to Chris Rea. Car has spent its entire life in Australia as a racer but they have just removed the BRM engine as the car is not FIA legal with it in. Unfortunately it had been bored out to 1800 - mad Aussies. They have another (correct) engine to put in its place. Interesting car to look over I have to say.
Good picture of Mrs Peel, now I need to find the episode it was taken from.
Get thee behind me Satan!
After our conversation I am currently reading the Mike Taylor book on the Lotus Elan.
It also happens Sherwood Restorations have a genuine 26R in at the moment - just sold it to Chris Rea. Car has spent its entire life in Australia as a racer but they have just removed the BRM engine as the car is not FIA legal with it in. Unfortunately it had been bored out to 1800 - mad Aussies. They have another (correct) engine to put in its place. Interesting car to look over I have to say.
Good picture of Mrs Peel, now I need to find the episode it was taken from.
Get thee behind me Satan!
David Jones
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MarkE
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#20
A health warning. There are two markets for 26R cars. Firstly, the wealthy wannabee racers who will pay ?120,000 for a 'real' 26R, the vast majority of which were built in the last couple of years, have an identity of an original car, but are to all intents and purposes, brand new cars. The Lotus collectors wouldn't touch them...they know that they cost about ?40k to build. All parts are available.
Then there are the cars with continuous provenance, that are still largely the original car, with a proven and continuous race or road history. Maybe 1 in 15 of the 26R survivors. They are worth the same sort of money, a lot more if a famous car with good track record. They always change hands privately.
PM me if you are really interested in an Elan...I can talk you through the pitfalls. But enough on this forum, or Harry will throw me off!!
To bring the two interests into sharp focus, and turn up the devilment, watch this and turn the volume up...
Mark
Then there are the cars with continuous provenance, that are still largely the original car, with a proven and continuous race or road history. Maybe 1 in 15 of the 26R survivors. They are worth the same sort of money, a lot more if a famous car with good track record. They always change hands privately.
PM me if you are really interested in an Elan...I can talk you through the pitfalls. But enough on this forum, or Harry will throw me off!!
To bring the two interests into sharp focus, and turn up the devilment, watch this and turn the volume up...
Mark
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