Starter motor problems
#1 Starter motor problems
Hi everyone,
I started my car today went first turn on key ,but when restarting i am just getting a clicking noise.
Have done the usual checks connections battery etc. and they all seem ok(just fitted a new loom section for motor)
If i fit a new motor what would anyone recommend ,having the original reconditioned or a new hi torque one?
Has i have heard the Hi torque ones are not that much better than a good original.
Any thoughts?
My car is a1971 s3 auto.
Rob Gill.
I started my car today went first turn on key ,but when restarting i am just getting a clicking noise.
Have done the usual checks connections battery etc. and they all seem ok(just fitted a new loom section for motor)
If i fit a new motor what would anyone recommend ,having the original reconditioned or a new hi torque one?
Has i have heard the Hi torque ones are not that much better than a good original.
Any thoughts?
My car is a1971 s3 auto.
Rob Gill.
v12 etype 2+2
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#2 Re: Starter motor problems
Rob Wrote:
If the engine is in reasonable condition and in good tune (starts reasonably easily), then I can't observe much difference between the two. I've just replaced a client's original with a high torque unit; accordingly, I base my comment on first hand experience. The original failed like turning a light switch, one minute it was working perfectly, then sounding like the battery was very flat (which it wasn't). Voltage drop measured at the battery was down to circa 6VDC and current draw over 600amps when cranking. The cranking exercise was no more than a second (just enough to get a reading); any more would have seen much Lucas smoke escaping from the battery lead.
SNGB offer a reconditioned option; I'm not sure if that required a swap with your own; but on price basis there is an argument for going with the new, high torque unit.
There are two different pinions used through the year models of the S3. Both have 9 teeth but different OD and therefore different gear tooth DP. Very early S3 cars have an OD of 29mm, whilst later cars circa 25mm. The centre distance between the starter motor and the flywheel remains the same and therefore, the diameter and number of teeth in the flywheel is increased for the 25mm OD pinion; make sure you determine what you have before ordering a new High Torque S/Motor if that's the way you end up going.
Before fitting a High Torque starter motor, measure the distance from the face of the Bell Housing, where the Starter Motor mounts and the front face of the Ring Gear of the Flywheel. Then measure from the face of the mounting flange of the High Torque Starter Motor (that surface that interfaces with the Bell Housing) to the outer end of the Pinion (the end of the pinion that will be closest to the Ring Gear when in place). The dimension gained from the Starter Motor measurement should be less than that gained from the Flywheel measurement. I failed to do so, reasoning that the supplied unit would be correct (what was I thinking) and when the engine was first started, it was obvious that the engine was then driving the starter motor. When I made the measurement described earlier, it proved that the Pinion had 4mm engagement with the Ring Gear when the Starter Motor was at rest.
I contacted the supplier and was told. "you need the spacer we supply". When that came and after installing it, I made the measurements and found that there was still 0.1mm interference between the two gears. This small interference would have created a worse scenario than the 4mm, as I suspect the end face of the Pinion would have been shaved by the Ring Gear, rather that just spinning the Starter Motor's armature. Again I contacted the supplier and got the old spiel, "we've been supplying these for the last 20 years and this has not happened before". "Whatever, its happening now", was my reply. They then informed me that I need the thicker flange that we also supply. Funny they should have that rectification part for a condition that hasn't happened in 20 years; I guess I was just lucky.
Regards,
Bill
Hello Rob,Have done the usual checks connections battery etc. and they all seem ok(just fitted a new loom section for motor)
If i fit a new motor what would anyone recommend ,having the original reconditioned or a new hi torque one?
Has i have heard the Hi torque ones are not that much better than a good original.
If the engine is in reasonable condition and in good tune (starts reasonably easily), then I can't observe much difference between the two. I've just replaced a client's original with a high torque unit; accordingly, I base my comment on first hand experience. The original failed like turning a light switch, one minute it was working perfectly, then sounding like the battery was very flat (which it wasn't). Voltage drop measured at the battery was down to circa 6VDC and current draw over 600amps when cranking. The cranking exercise was no more than a second (just enough to get a reading); any more would have seen much Lucas smoke escaping from the battery lead.
SNGB offer a reconditioned option; I'm not sure if that required a swap with your own; but on price basis there is an argument for going with the new, high torque unit.
There are two different pinions used through the year models of the S3. Both have 9 teeth but different OD and therefore different gear tooth DP. Very early S3 cars have an OD of 29mm, whilst later cars circa 25mm. The centre distance between the starter motor and the flywheel remains the same and therefore, the diameter and number of teeth in the flywheel is increased for the 25mm OD pinion; make sure you determine what you have before ordering a new High Torque S/Motor if that's the way you end up going.
Before fitting a High Torque starter motor, measure the distance from the face of the Bell Housing, where the Starter Motor mounts and the front face of the Ring Gear of the Flywheel. Then measure from the face of the mounting flange of the High Torque Starter Motor (that surface that interfaces with the Bell Housing) to the outer end of the Pinion (the end of the pinion that will be closest to the Ring Gear when in place). The dimension gained from the Starter Motor measurement should be less than that gained from the Flywheel measurement. I failed to do so, reasoning that the supplied unit would be correct (what was I thinking) and when the engine was first started, it was obvious that the engine was then driving the starter motor. When I made the measurement described earlier, it proved that the Pinion had 4mm engagement with the Ring Gear when the Starter Motor was at rest.
I contacted the supplier and was told. "you need the spacer we supply". When that came and after installing it, I made the measurements and found that there was still 0.1mm interference between the two gears. This small interference would have created a worse scenario than the 4mm, as I suspect the end face of the Pinion would have been shaved by the Ring Gear, rather that just spinning the Starter Motor's armature. Again I contacted the supplier and got the old spiel, "we've been supplying these for the last 20 years and this has not happened before". "Whatever, its happening now", was my reply. They then informed me that I need the thicker flange that we also supply. Funny they should have that rectification part for a condition that hasn't happened in 20 years; I guess I was just lucky.
Regards,
Bill
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#3 Re: Starter motor problems
Take a spanner to the front of the engine and turn the crank clockwise a few degrees.
Now try again.
If it works, then all is still good; if not, you'll have to investigate further.
kind regards
Marek
Now try again.
If it works, then all is still good; if not, you'll have to investigate further.
kind regards
Marek
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#5 Re: Starter motor problems
Had this problem on my early ser 3, it was just the connection to the starter though. If your solenoid on the starter is clicking though it could be that the contacts inside the solenoid are burnt or worn away. If so you will need to remove the starter and dismantle the solenoid to rectify.
Derek
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2. Ser 3 now sold, looking for a new toy to keep Ser 1 company
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2. Ser 3 now sold, looking for a new toy to keep Ser 1 company
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#6 Re: Starter motor problems
Thanks that sounds like a good possibility.
Is that much of a job ,has i have taken the starter off with a view to getting it reconditioned.
Rob Gill.
Is that much of a job ,has i have taken the starter off with a view to getting it reconditioned.
Rob Gill.
v12 etype 2+2
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#7 Re: Starter motor problems
Hi Rob, I don't think it would be too difficult as you have already done the hard part in removing the starter.
The solenoid plunger operates a lever that moves the starter gear to engage with the flywheel and on full travel the plunger also engages with the two contacts internally to energise the motor. these contacts are the internal ends of the copper setscrews that the cables connect to. If you manage to disassemble the solenoid from the starter and remove the plunger you may be able to clean or even replace these setscrews. It's certainly worth a try.
The solenoid plunger operates a lever that moves the starter gear to engage with the flywheel and on full travel the plunger also engages with the two contacts internally to energise the motor. these contacts are the internal ends of the copper setscrews that the cables connect to. If you manage to disassemble the solenoid from the starter and remove the plunger you may be able to clean or even replace these setscrews. It's certainly worth a try.
Derek
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2. Ser 3 now sold, looking for a new toy to keep Ser 1 company
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2. Ser 3 now sold, looking for a new toy to keep Ser 1 company
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#8 Re: Starter motor problems
These may help, this is an XJS starter but much the same. the solenoid is only held on by two setscrews and the cables.
Derek
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2. Ser 3 now sold, looking for a new toy to keep Ser 1 company
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2. Ser 3 now sold, looking for a new toy to keep Ser 1 company
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#9 Re: Starter motor problems
Ha, after 42 years of ownership my starter failed. I took it to the last remaining Lucas rebuild shop Jay Electrics Surrey outer London. Windings were shot. They rebuilt mine. I specifically did not want the knock off Hi Torque motors as I've heard they can get stuck and catch fire.
What a difference the rebuilt starter made. Cranks like a billeo, car starts better. Age old problem that as things deteririte you don't notice. As mentioned SNG do a rebuild service also, I have no experience but this I would go for if I didn't have my local guy.
What a difference the rebuilt starter made. Cranks like a billeo, car starts better. Age old problem that as things deteririte you don't notice. As mentioned SNG do a rebuild service also, I have no experience but this I would go for if I didn't have my local guy.
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Adam
S3 V12 E Type FHC Manual 1972-owned since 1978
1957 XK150 since 1976
S3 V12 E Type FHC Manual 1972-owned since 1978
1957 XK150 since 1976
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#10 Re: Starter motor problems
Adam, I always read your posts with interest, you have a pragmatic and financially sensible approach.. You must have developed these skills after buying a V12 Etype, or was it because of?
Thank you very much for posting the details for these guys, I love these old shops, I'm not far from them so I'll drop by before one of 2 things happens, my starter inevitably fails, or these guys inevitably disappear. Unfortunately, only the starter is easy to replace.
Joe
1972 S3 2+2 V12 Manual, FHC, British Rusting Green
1972 S3 2+2 V12 Manual, FHC, British Rusting Green
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