123-Tune+ static timing

[paulsco]

Hi all,
I have a 123-Tune + and after reading the instructions and some of the posts, I am a bit confused about initial set up.
The instructions state “bring the engine to the static timing point” (10 degrees?), but the posts and the 123 map in the knowledge base seem to indicate that the static timing should be set to TDC?
Which should it be?

Your help would be most appreciated.
Thanks,
Paul

[Turnip]

Yeah, I found the instructions (123 Tune) a bit unclear as well. It's almost like they're pasted together from different versions of the product.
My conclusion in the end is that you do have to set using the static timing point, and all the timing curve waypoints are set to (desired value - static timing).

It would be so much simpler if you could just set the values relative to tdc, but the lowest rpm you can set an advance value to is 500rpm. You could set that to 10 from tdc, but I assume the advance below 500rpm is 0 degrees and I don't know how well the engine would start at 0 degrees advance below 500rpm.

FWIW, on a rolling road we (rather, the technician) found that power dropped off a bit with more than 32 degrees advance above about 3000rpm, so your final curves values in that instance would be 22.
But that's my fairly standard engine. No doubt it's different for other people.

Simon

[paulsco]

Hi Simon,

Thanks for you response.
Interesting your point about the timing below 500 rpm, I hadn’t considered that.

Prior to you comments I was tempted to go for the TDC option as that is the basis for the map in the knowledge base, as far as I can determine.

I too have a basically standard 1965 4.2, although I did do a little cleaning up of the ports in the cylinder head.

Do you have a copy of you map/chosen settings that you used, that you are prepared to share?

Thanks again,

Paul

[mgcjag]

Hi Paul.....I suggest you have a look through this thread....especially from around posts 107....Rory has posted some great info on vacume....initially relating to edis but the same for 123......your 123 is fully programable so it dosnt really matter where you set your static and you pogram to suite(tdc or static point).....the original 123 with pre programed curves set by switch settings does need to be set to the correct static point......Steve http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 82#p139507

[paulsco]

Hi Steve,

Good point about the static timing needs of the earlier 123 compared to the Tune +

I have one in my Jaguar 340, which is probably where some of my confusion is coming from.

I will study the thread in your link, to get a better understanding.

Thanks,

Paul

[abowie]

So what's the simple answer?

Do you set it to 10 degrees BTDC or at TDC?

[AussieEtype]

I do not have a 123 on a Jag but I do on an another vehicle. The 123 needs to know where TDC is so its internal programming can work out when to fire - so it it needs to be set up on TDC.

In my 123's case I set the engine to TDC and then turn the dizzy until a little light on the side comes on indicating the dizzy is in the correct position and now knows where TDC is. Maybe different in the Jag system but the basic idea is the same.

Garry

[malcolm]

Garry, I think your 123 might be like mine - I also go to TDC and turn until the green light comes on. My 123 system has the selectable curves and it sounds like yours is the same. However, the post refers to a 123 tune version which is different.

[mgcjag]

Hi Malcolm....the Jag 6 123 with the 16 pre programed switchable curves should be set up at 10 btdc as per the instructions.......you confirmed this was where yours was set a while back when you drew up a chart of all the switch setable curves.....Steve

[malcolm]

That's right, but I think when you were first putting it in, you go to TDC then rotate to get Green, then go to 10 static. Might be wrong, but the point I was making is that the 123 being discussed is a 123 tune which is a different animal. Not sure that the tune has a "go to green" light.

[MarekH]

It doesn't really matter how you do things so long as you get a timing light on it and stay grounded in reality.

In the real world, you determine TDC and then make sure the timing plate reflects this.
Then you can plug and play with the new gizmo.
Then you you check the numbers against a strobe and make sure the computer's calbration offset is altered to make it read what the strobe says.
Then you can dial in the curves you want for the fuel and altitude you are running.

Finally, check the timing at peak torque rpm, e.g. 3000rpm, because that's when you don't want to be overadvanced.

Under no circumstances ever fit an electronic ignition without having access to a timing light. How can you tell it's right?

kind regards
Marek

[Turnip]

So what's the simple answer?

Do you set it to 10 degrees BTDC or at TDC?

I just had a look at the 123 Tune manual again. It says "Bring the engine to the static timing point - at the end of the compression stroke", which is a bit unclear. Maybe it's the translation from Dutch, but if you read it as "towards the the of the compression stroke" that means 10 before tdc for me.
There is a green timing light that you have to line up; it's indicating that the device is triggering at that point of the engine rotation.
One big advantage of the Tune version is that you are not forced to have a over-high maximum advance when using pre-set curves that suit you better at lower rpm.
The other features I like are:
- It turns the coil off if the engine isn't running. Useful when you are sorting out your wiring.
- a programmable rev limiter, although the rolling road man thought it was cutting in slightly early. I just set it a couple of hundred rpm higher.
- I suppose being able to disable the dizzy from your phone could be useful security but it would be better if it could disable the dizzy of the flatbed that comes to tow your car away.

Simon

[Turnip]

Do you have a copy of you map/chosen settings that you used, that you are prepared to share?

If I could find a way of getting the file off my phone I would willingly!
The values I use are listed below. You should be able to create your own curve file from them.

I just started with the "maximum" advance values recommended by Jaguar on the basis that an electronic gizmo should be able to handle them OK. A little bit more advance was sneaked in whilst on the rolling road.

500rpm 0.0
800 0.0
1000 3.0
1300 8.0
1600 14.0
2500 19.0 (Jaguar says 17)
3000 22.0 (Jag says 21 at 3600)
4600 22.0
5000 22.0

As for the vacuum advance I just did my best to translate the Max curve to kP pressure:
0 0.0
15 0.0
20 1.0
25 6.0
30 11.0
44 17.0
68 18.0
100 0.0
200 0.0

It seems to work for me.

Simon

[abowie]

That's right, but I think when you were first putting it in, you go to TDC then rotate to get Green

Any idea how it knows when it's on TDC?

[abowie]

"Bring the engine to the static timing point - at the end of the compression stroke"

That means TDC to me.

[paulsco]

Thanks for your settings Simon.

It strikes me that it doesn’t really matter if you choose TDC or 10 degrees, but i think it is easier to envisage the advance curve if you use TDC.

The 123 has no idea where it is starting from, just that it starts calculating from wherever it is set.
One thing that does bother me though, which was mentioned by Simon and that is the timing before 500rpm if the TDC option is chosen.

On the app, the timings start from 500rpm, if you choose the 10 degree option, the timing before 500rpm will be 10 degrees, but with the TDC option, I assume that it will be 0 degrees up to 500rpm?
I don’t know if this will make any difference, but it is possible that it might affect starting.

I think I am going to try the map in the knowledge base first, which uses TDC as the initial setting. If this proves to be a problem, I will change to 10 degrees and follow Simons settings.

Paul

[malcolm]

That's right, but I think when you were first putting it in, you go to TDC then rotate to get Green

Any idea how it knows when it's on TDC?

I don't think it does. I think that "Green" is just the point where it starts the firing procedure from, and you set the timing for that position first. So you set the car to TDC, or 10 before (can't remember!) then rotate the dizzie until you get green. I just got it running then adjusted the timing using a strobe to get 10 BTDC on tickover. The pre-set curves on my non-tune version then do the rest.

[paulsco]

Well I have fitted the 123Tune + and tried the TDC option and the map in the knowledge base.

The car misfired a few times but refused to start.

I am about to try the 10 degrees BTDC curve, but I have one problem that may be the cause of the failure.

No matter where I turn the distributor to, when I adjust to get the LED to light, the rotor arm position is directly between two terminals on the distributor cap and doesn’t line up with either.

I am assuming that when the LED lights, then this is when it fires, so between two terminals will not do and it is not near enough the next terminal to assume it will fire there.

Has anybody else come across this problem with the 123 ?

Paul

[rswaffie]

Hi Paul,
When setting your engine to TDC, did you confirm that it was done on the compression stroke, not the exhaust stroke?

[paulsco]

Hi Richard,

Yes it was from TDC on the compression stroke.

I am fairly sure that this particular problem is confined to the distributor.

Even if you remove the distributor and turn the shaft to any position that lights up the LED, the rotor is between the posts on the distributor cap and not lined up with any of them.

I am wondering if this is somehow normal, or if it is possible to re orientate the rotor position on the shaft?

I have emailed 123 to see if this is a common problem.

Paul