Help please on diagnosis, I am hot and is my oil pressure ok

[baldyz1]

My car is a 1966 etype 2+2 that has gone through extensive restoration.

There is a huge saga spread over 7 years with various specialists so I won't bore you. The car is nearly finished but after moving the car to the last specialist after the first one dying and the second dying and the that business going into receivership I received a 50 point list of things that needed rectification. Some items small and some more daunting. As the specialist could not give me a price to complete the work I took the car away on the basis that I will now do these things myself. I am fed up with the bottomless pit of costs and I am scarily in the hole on this one so to speak.

My current priority is to get the car MOTed and driveable so I can get it to places should there be things I cannot do. Things like the wipers not parking properly for instance.

One of the items reported was low oil pressure and possible oil foaming. I bought a mechanical gauge and fitted this today in place of the normal switch. The cars gauge was reading around 10psi at idle. The pressure at idle on start was 50psi and after warming off choke was also 50 psi. Revving to 3,000 rpm showed 60psi and I was under the impression that is was topped out here as a quick blip over 3,000 did not change the reading. I did not want to rev higher for any period at this stage. The pressure dropped closer to 40-45 when fully hot on idle, probably around 90 degrees in water temperature. I couldn't really see how I could check for foaming. The dipstick showed nice clear oil so I am not sure how the specialist reported this as they did not take anything apart to my knowledge. So any ideas how I can check for foaming and do my pressures seem ok?

During my oil tests the water temperature rose of course and the fan kicked in between the 70 marker and the 110 marker on the gauge. I assume that this is around 90 on the gauge (see below). It was all fine until I switched her off. The temperature must have kept climbing and then she belched a good deal of coolant. Probably about half the header tank was belched and I turned the ignition back on and the needle was to the right of the mid marker between 70 and 110 so probably a little over 90 maybe closer to 100. I let the fan run to clear the heat pooling, the fan clicked of at the mid marker between 70 and 110. I put some of the coolant back as I had caught much of it and removed the top gasket from the cap as I believe the lower rubber was only just catching. I checked this by putting Tipex on the metal surface of the header tank and the Tipex was disturbed, but only barely. The cap is marked as 7lb and is new (see attached).

I ran the car again and this time rather than leave it idle I revved several times to 2,500 rpm and noted that the heat pooling did not occur and the temperature stayed just below the 90 degree marker. The heat did not rise when I turned the engine off and checked the guage with the ignition on. The fan is the original which has been reconditioned and this kicks in and out as appropriate. It does take some time to cool from 90 to 70 however. The radiator was reconditioned with larger cores.

I would like to know if the belching is normal. Whether I need to buy a 9lb cap perhaps and what the idle temperature is safe to climb to without fear of damage to the engine or blowing the head gasket. I checked the oil and the cap for sludge etc and there is nothing untoward so I have not damaged her.

These are worrying times for me as I have not performed any of the work on this car and the people involved are no longer able to answer my questions as they are no longer with us. Whilst she looks beautiful both inside and out I am disappointed that there are still a considerable number of mechanical aspects to put right and many of these directly related to safety such as steering rack loose, front brakes unfinished.

All help gratefully received.

Cheers
Chris

[nichmoss]

If I were you, I would have someone look at the car who can properly help you. You seem to be in UK so, whereabouts?

If this is really the major issue, then I would be reasonably relaxed. Hopefully, an MOT would not be far away. Oil foaming? Sounds like a catch all for someone who doesn't understand what is happening...

I wish you the best of luck. Let me know if you're in Somerset and I will try to help

Best wishes, Chris

[abowie]

I think your oil pressure is fine. The electric gauges are notoriously unreliable. See my thread on how to calibrate the sender.

Oil foaming is not something I've seen. A quick Google search suggests that if you overfill the sump the crank can churn the oil. What is the oil level on the dipstick? Do you have the correct dipstick?

If you have any doubts I would drain your sump and refill the car with no more than 8l of oil.

If overfilled the cooling system will expel coolant until it reaches a level. If you keep topping it off it will keep doing it.

I would let it do this then let it cool down and then run the car up to temperature again. I would expect it should expel very little coolant at this point. It sounds to me like your fan is working properly. I would use the correct radiator cap for the car.

WRT appropriate revs etc. Views on running in engines vary widely.

I take a middle ground where I try to drive the car on a couple of long trips (100 miles or so) once I am relatively confident that it's not going to break down.

I run the engine up to 3000, maybe 3500, don't labour the engine at low RPM going up hills, and try to vary the running RPM a bit by speeding up and slowing down on long stretches.

Once I have about 500 miles or so on the clock I change the filter and the oil and then drive the car a little harder. Once I'm at 1000 miles or so I'm happy to give it full throttle at 4500 RPM.

Caveat. I'm just answering questions over the internet and haven't seen your car.

[Gfhug]

Chris, I see you’re in Surrey, both Chris (nichmoss) and I know a very good E Type restorer near Basingstoke. He is busy but would be ideal to give you an honest opinion of the car and any of the faults that are being suggested. If you are interested drop Chris or me a pm, (Chris knows him better than me).

Otherwise going further to Letchworth in Herts you could talk to Angus Moss of this parish.

Geoff

[malcolm]

Another +1 for the oil pressure - it's fine and suggests the engine basics are a.o.k
Ditch the guage. I got fed up with erratic readings leading me astray and got a mechanical (capillary) one from SNG. For the first time I actually know what my true readings are!

[baldyz1]

Thanks Geoff, Chris and Mr Bowie.

Last night I ordered a infra red temperature gauge to get more accurate readings so I will update on what I find.

I think draining the oil and starting again would be a good shout as I don't know what was put in. I can also inspect the old oil for any shimmer etc..

I will follow the running in instructions once I get her past an MOT and am confident she won't overheat.

I may also change the thermostat as it could be faulty even though it is new. If people know the best source for the thermostat and the best rating this would be really useful.

My coolant is Blue: is this correct or should I drain out and start again here also?

In relation to specialists I have had my fill. I just constantly feel I am being ripped off and I am not sure that people always know their stuff. I have so far spent £143,000 on this car and much of that will have been lost parts, double invoicing, stolen parts, swapped parts, mistakes etc.. etc.. I suspect around £40k of foul play. The last so called specialist wanted to take the new engine out and strip down to see if it had been put together properly at a cost of £15,000. They wanted 3K for just dropping the sump to inspect the oil pick up. My oil pressure reading simply does not concur with the 10-20 psi they were suggesting (were they just looking to rack up a good bill? or am I paranoid). They have a great reputation so they say. They did spot some issues with the carbs where the two choke lifters on front and rear had not been fitted and also my dashpots had been swapped for later XJ ones. The carbs are correct but my green tags were nicked and swapped for red. I have managed to source some new pots and matched dampers but this will be a finishing touch. Luckily the 2+2 has 2cm more clearance for the bonnet or there would have been dashpot shaped marks.

I am painting a poor picture; the cosmetic work and attention to detail on the engine bay is stunning. Its really the pure engineering work and the testing that is currently in question.

The problem is that once your car is half done and parts are over the place you become stuck. I know I am not alone in this. On the upside the body and the interior are impeccable. If I can just work through the mechanicals it will be the best of its type (2+2) possibly in the world. But the money tree has since died I am afraid.

I will get a specialist to do the final inspection and check the tuning etc.. and at that point I will be looking for as many recommendations as I can get.

Thanks
Chris

[baldyz1]

Hi Malcolm,

Many thanks for your +1. At least I know if I move her to MOT stations etc then I am not damaging the engine. This was a big worry.

If anyone can suggest the right thermostat for UK running and the correct radiator cap for the 4.2 that would be really helpful.

Thanks
Chris

[Simonpfhc]

Hi Chris,

Sounds like you’ve had a bit of a nightmare, but glad you are nearly there.

Whereabouts in Surrey are you? I would be more than happy to take a look and provide some advice and guidance.

PM me if you think that might be useful.

As far as radiator caps go, 7psi should be fine.

[baldyz1]

OMG Simon it would be amazing to have a second pair of eyes and ears. I could provide copious quality coffee and etype talk.

I am in Sutton, Surrey. I would say I could come to you but that would be difficult at the mo.

Thanks
Chris

[nichmoss]

I run the same radiator cap as you have on my 3.8. I recently changed it as my car was belching small amounts of water when heat soaking after a run. I used the same model and it is fine again - the old one was just weak after many years of use. I suppose this is still the correct one for your car from other replies but your header tank will be different to mine. When you get to drive the car, run around with the heater on if you are concerned about losing water - if the heater suddenly goes cold, then stop.

You should get the Jaguar manual for your car - ISBN 1-855-20020-1. This would help you greatly if you are going to do the work yourself. On page B9, Jaguar only specify the oil pressure (hot) as 40psi at 3000 rpm and your car shows that so, as others have said, the pressure is fine.

I would get the manual first and go over the car yourself. Then take any help you can get including the generous offer from Simon. The person that Geoff and I know is absolutely honest and prepares cars for many people as well as doing everything up to full restorations. It sounds like you've had bad experiences but I wouldn't write him off based on that.

In terms of the correct parts, I have the Jaguar parts manual for the 3.8 and I suppose one exists for the later cars as well. SNG are pretty good at listing the correct parts for each model as well.

Good luck, Chris

[malcolm]

Chris, you were concerned that maybe the garage was trying to rip you off. I see you live in Surrey. I think I might know the garage - I'll pm you who I think it might be.

[nichmoss]

Sorry, that ISBN may not be much help. At SNG, the code is E123/SB - this is the manual I'm talking about.

Best, Chris

[baldyz1]

This is all amazing and encouraging help.

I am not here to spread any bad feeling about service providers as everyones experience will differ.

One day I will tell you all the full story about my car which will make your toes curl.

Now to order that manual.

Cosmetically looking good!




Thanks
Chris

[Simonpfhc]

Hi Chris,

I’m in Surbiton, so pretty close. Would be more than happy to pop over and take a look.

PM me your details and we can arrange something.

[Philk]

Simon would be well placed (both geographically and experience-wise) to offer advice. A couple of thoughts to assist on the cooling front:

- From early 1963, E-Types were fitted with 9lb radiator caps. This is documented in Service Bulletin D.8 and Spares Bulletin N.3 (both dated March 1963) thereby allowing the engines to run to higher temperature prior to the "blow-off" taking place down the pressure relief drainage hose.

- Depending upon the header tank you have fitted, you may find you only need to fill it up to just over the half-way mark. As per a previous post, the E-types tend to find their own coolant level in the header tank. Once the higher pressure cap is fitted, you could put a bit more water in the header tank and see if any is expelled. If none, you can put a bit more in. Repeat until you have some expelled after a decent run. Providing you then still have a decent amount of water left in the header tank you should be fine.

[baldyz1]

Thats great Phil, I have also been reading the long posts about thermostats now there is a topic with no end in sight.

Thanks
Chris

[baldyz1]

So I met a true gentleman today, Simon

We went through compression tests, oil pressure and vacuum. Simon feels the engine is all good just needs proper tuning and all torque settings checked.

So this shows that for whatever reason a supplier wanted to extract money for completely unnecessary work. Not even a small amount as the suggested amounts were up to 15k.

I am extremely happy and am eternally grateful to Simon. I suggest people be careful dealing with suppliers and always get a second opinion on major works.

Thanks for everyone's help. I luckily smelt a rat but I have been merrily fleeced in the past. I guess you learn the hard way.

[chrisfell]

Chris,
Looks like you have many of your fears aswaged. I recall feeling many of those same fears when I became an E-Type owner almost twenty years ago.

Oil pressure problems? It was almost always the sender. I have used four, one of which seems to be constant and approximately accurate. The function of the gauge is only to tell you when something has gone wrong, like a catastrophic failure of the central main bearing - the one time my oil pressure gauge faithfully warned me that something was wrong.

Water levels? When I first had my car I filled the header tank up to the brim. After a short run, with the engine off and starting to cool it would puke some coolant out. Eventually, and after asking advice here and on Jag-Lovers, I discovered my error. The header tank needs air space into which the coolant can expand. Later cars than yours (and mine - ie 1967 S1½s and 1968 S2s) have a separated expansion tank. The puked coolant gets sucked back into the system.

OIl foaming? This sound to me like complete bollcks. The sump will have to be massively overfilled for this to be a feature. Despite what many will tell you, the XK engine is very forgiving of oil levels. I've known one engine (in a XK150) driven until there was no oil on the dipstick. It took over a gallon to get a reading on the dipstick, but at no point was the engine starved of oil. I quietly smile to myself when I read that one should never over fill the sump as the crank webs will foam the oil. If one thinks about it, if this was the case, one would never be able to start the car on a slope, only when the car and engine was dead level. As already mentioned, I measure the oil that goes in and after 8litres the dipstick should be showing a level in the hatched area. BTW, the dipstick should have an E stamped on it, indicating E-Type, and the oily tip of the stick should be precisely 10" from the collar. Less or more and the levels reading will be inaccurate. I always slightly overfill my sump, as my engine dribbles oil constantly from several places. But then it has never been properly re-built.

Once you have got over these teething troubles, you will have a beautiful and very practical car to play with. During my ownership my car has gone from niggling teething troubles to dependable daily driver (almost). I do 3,000 to 5,000 miles every year. The car has done over 200,000 miles, over 70,000 miles in my custody. Although it is Carmen red today, when it was first made it was opalescent silver grey - not unlike your gunmetal paint. A splendid colour for the 2+2.

You will get to enjoy your E - eventually. And you will also learn that E-Types are not highly strung sports cars, but solidly engineered long distance tourers. They are, afterall, descended directly from the Le Mans winning D-type and C-Types.

[baldyz1]

What a great post, thank you.

Simon has rejuvenated my interest and allayed fears. Sometimes we need a car psychologist!

I will check out the dipstick could explain any over filling.

Thanks
Chris