1965 Series 1 4.2 FHC value - please help

[eTypeG]

Hi, Very sorry if this subject has been covered recently but I am a new member to this forum. I have been offered a 1965 series 1 4.2 FHC but I do not have a clue as to what I should pay for it. Its a complete car ex show winner (matching numbers) but it's seen better days, it's complete ,runs but does not have an MOT (not been used for 6 years), it's a LHD converted to RHD, there are bubbles in the paint work in the bottom of the doors, on top of the bonnet and bottom of the sills, however there is no rot/holes anywhere, the doors, boot and front all shut well with good gaps.

What's it worth at the moment ?, and what would it be worth once the required work has been done to make it a very good condition car ?.

Many Thanks.

[vipergts]

Virtually impossible to say without at least having some pics.

Bubbles will always be holes if poked

[eTypeG]

Many thanks for the reply, sorry but I don't have any photos, I understand eType valuation is a complex and difficult task which can only be done properly by inspecting the car. However at the moment what I am looking for are 'ball park' values for categories eg 'box of bits', 'poor condition compete car', 'good condition complete car', etc, however taking into account the car in question is a LHD to RHD conversion.

Many thanks

[PeterCrespin]

Many thanks for the reply, sorry but I don't have any photos, I understand eType valuation is a complex and difficult task which can only be done properly by inspecting the car. However at the moment what I am looking for are 'ball park' values for categories eg 'box of bits', 'poor condition compete car', 'good condition complete car', etc, however taking into account the car in question is a LHD to RHD conversion.

Many thanks

Hundreds of cars in the UK are conversions. In a straw poll of about half a dozen friends about 8 of twelve E-types were conversions. It has no major bearing on value IMHO unless there is a reason for the RHD car being special in other respects. Personally, anyone advertising a 'genuine RHD car' starts of at a disadvantage in my book, because I would raise my normal high level of scepticism up a notch if they claim the car has no rot (unless they can demonstrate 100% guaranteed evidence of thorough survey and repairs).

Even the 'show-winning' tag means nothing without knowing what sort of show. I bet my very road-stained OTS could win a village show somewhere, provided the judges had dark glasses and white sticks.

65 is a good vintage so I'd guesstimate:

7-10K for a complete basket case with tatty outer panels but semi-solid body.
10-15K for something like a complete project car in need of total going over.
15-20K for a basically sound car in need of recommissioning
20-25K for an cheap runner or exceptional dry-state project car with no welding but in need of recommissioning
25-30K for a decent runner with MOT
30-35K for a nice car but not a stunner
35K upwards for true total resto cars, depending on whether you value newness over originality. I think there may be a move towards originality and 'survival' of at least major parts, rather than a so-called 'nut and bolt' rebuild consisting almost entirely of repro spares, with very little Browns Lane DNA left in it.

There was a spike above these numbers this year, such that one dealer was asking mid-twenties for several totally rotted-out, no floors FHCs with hardly a salvageable panel in them. I suspect (and fervently hope) that the 50th Anniversary hype will die down and result in things becoming saner again.

[MarkE]

The places you describe that now have paint bubbling are the places where an E Type will rot out?check the rear wheel arches / around the rear numberplate as well. You say there is no rot but I fear that?s exactly what lays underneath that bubbling paint, in which case the car wasn?t restored properly or it?s had a very hard life / been very damp since restoration.

The LHD conversion values depend on what the car was like before it was converted. There are many ?original RHD? E Types that were re-shelled with LHD rust-free shells in the 90s when they were cheap. There are many ?original rust-free LHD? cars that are in fact rot boxes / badly accident damaged that have been botched back together. Most states in the USA are worse than the UK for rusting away old Brit cars!

There are a few LHD cars that are genuine rust-free and accident free cars, and there are a tiny number of original RHD cars that are also genuine rust free and accident free. The bottom line is that you need to understand what the car was like BEFORE is had this restoration to show winning standard, which frankly, seems very unlikely.

If there are no photos / invoices for the body restoration then assume the worst, given that it is now showing signs of rotting. You also need to see invoices for the mechanical and trim work, and altogether that lot will add up to many tens of thousands of pounds. This sort of provenance is vital if the car is to be worth anything like good money.

As for prices in general, a car requiring full restoration is around ?10k to ?20k, depending on its general condition, and if this one is up and running and on the road, it will be the top end of this.

?20k to ?35k will buy you a good car with some faults. Rust coming through the bottom of the doors / sills could mean a botch job, or it could mean that the car was an honest rust-free car when it came over to the UK, but it wasn?t waxoiled / rustproofed before being put on the road, and now its deterioration has accelerated. Either way, it will probably need a bare metal re-paint and some metalwork in these bubbling areas, which could be ?10k at least, and double that or more if many horrors lurk beneath the paint!

Check the car very thoroughly for signs of botched up bodywork. Look at the bottoms of the doors on the inside, and all around the inside of the doors. Do the same with the tailgate and the bonnet. Have a look under the carpet. Have a look under the filler cap?a botch job usually doesn?t bother finishing off this area very well.

Prices are still very strong for perfect cars, around ?60k for the best S1 Coupes outside the specialist E Type retailers. But the price drops off alarmingly with just a couple of faults, especially when those faults mean paintwork / bodywork on an E Type. You can get a really well sorted and reliable car, with a few stone chips and supermarket dings in the side, for ?30k ish.

If in doubt, get a specialist to check it over. It?s very easy to fall in love with an old E type, but it?s also very easy to loose your shirt on it as well!

[Dave K]

Many thanks for the reply, sorry but I don't have any photos, I understand eType valuation is a complex and difficult task which can only be done properly by inspecting the car. However at the moment what I am looking for are 'ball park' values for categories eg 'box of bits', 'poor condition compete car', 'good condition complete car', etc, however taking into account the car in question is a LHD to RHD conversion.

Many thanks

As long as the conversion has been done properly then the LHD to RHD drive doesn't make that much difference.

The JEC valuations suggest the following prices:
Concours A+ A B C
E-Type S1 4.2 FHC 64/67 65,000 40,000 26,500 15,000 9,500

So your E-Type would maybe worth between ?15000 and ?26,500. If you want to get it up to a reasonable standard then consider spending twice as much as you bought it for. Once you start investigating those little bubbles they soon become big holes and an E-Type sitting for a while will need a lot of work on suspension rubbers, carbs, IRS etc.

Hope this helps a bit but as someone said without seeing it or even photos then it's very hard.

Dave

[Heuer]

Bear in mind the potential restoration costs as well. Once you have the car you will start finding problems which lead to other issues and you will eventually have the car in bits (it will gnaw away at you!). A full restoration by a specialist will cost you ?130,000 and about half that if you do it yourself. Expect ?30,000 for the body shell, ?10,000 for a decent paint job, ?5,000 for the engine, ?1200 for the interior and then there are all the other bits (gearbox, axle, brakes, ancillaries, chrome .........).

[eTypeG]

65 is a good vintage so I'd guesstimate:

7-10K for a complete basket case with tatty outer panels but semi-solid body.
10-15K for something like a complete project car in need of total going over.
15-20K for a basically sound car in need of recommissioning
20-25K for an cheap runner or exceptional dry-state project car with no welding but in need of recommissioning
25-30K for a decent runner with MOT
30-35K for a nice car but not a stunner
35K upwards for true total resto cars, depending on whether you value newness over originality. I think there may be a move towards originality and 'survival' of at least major parts, rather than a so-called 'nut and bolt' rebuild consisting almost entirely of repro spares, with very little Browns Lane DNA left in it.

Many thanks for your reply, I was thinking max ?20k, the car is complete and drives, I may be able to get it MOT'd, but it needs work, the problem is how much work. I have looked under the doors and tailgate and there is zero rust, the boot floor is aslo perfect. The tub floors are not rotten, but look tired.

The car as confused me a little

[eTypeG]

The places you describe that now have paint bubbling are the places where an E Type will rot out?check the rear wheel arches / around the rear numberplate as well. You say there is no rot but I fear that?s exactly what lays underneath that bubbling paint, in which case the car wasn?t restored properly or it?s had a very hard life / been very damp since restoration.

The LHD conversion values depend on what the car was like before it was converted. There are many ?original RHD? E Types that were re-shelled with LHD rust-free shells in the 90s when they were cheap. There are many ?original rust-free LHD? cars that are in fact rot boxes / badly accident damaged that have been botched back together. Most states in the USA are worse than the UK for rusting away old Brit cars!

There are a few LHD cars that are genuine rust-free and accident free cars, and there are a tiny number of original RHD cars that are also genuine rust free and accident free. The bottom line is that you need to understand what the car was like BEFORE is had this restoration to show winning standard, which frankly, seems very unlikely.

If there are no photos / invoices for the body restoration then assume the worst, given that it is now showing signs of rotting. You also need to see invoices for the mechanical and trim work, and altogether that lot will add up to many tens of thousands of pounds. This sort of provenance is vital if the car is to be worth anything like good money.

As for prices in general, a car requiring full restoration is around ?10k to ?20k, depending on its general condition, and if this one is up and running and on the road, it will be the top end of this.

?20k to ?35k will buy you a good car with some faults. Rust coming through the bottom of the doors / sills could mean a botch job, or it could mean that the car was an honest rust-free car when it came over to the UK, but it wasn?t waxoiled / rustproofed before being put on the road, and now its deterioration has accelerated. Either way, it will probably need a bare metal re-paint and some metalwork in these bubbling areas, which could be ?10k at least, and double that or more if many horrors lurk beneath the paint!

Check the car very thoroughly for signs of botched up bodywork. Look at the bottoms of the doors on the inside, and all around the inside of the doors. Do the same with the tailgate and the bonnet. Have a look under the carpet. Have a look under the filler cap?a botch job usually doesn?t bother finishing off this area very well.

Prices are still very strong for perfect cars, around ?60k for the best S1 Coupes outside the specialist E Type retailers. But the price drops off alarmingly with just a couple of faults, especially when those faults mean paintwork / bodywork on an E Type. You can get a really well sorted and reliable car, with a few stone chips and supermarket dings in the side, for ?30k ish.

If in doubt, get a specialist to check it over. It?s very easy to fall in love with an old E type, but it?s also very easy to loose your shirt on it as well!

Hi, Many thanks for your reply I think you have hit the 'nail on the head' with this car when you say "car may not have been restored properly or it?s had a very hard life / been very damp since restoration.", as I have seen the photos and invoices of a full restore in the last 80's and it was bare metal and no expense spared inside or out hence a major show winner in the early 90's. However for the last 10 years it has been stored in a poor quality garage and not used regularly for the last 6 years. I have looked at the bottom of the doors, tailgate and boot boot floor and they look perfect with nice paint, the tub floors look tired but not rotten. Apart from the top seam and front underside (by the mouth) the bonnet is good.

I was thinking max ?20k leaving some scope to have the bodywork sorted by a body shop (max ?10K including painting) and sort the mechanics myself, but I am not so keen on a full restore I dont have the time or energy at the moment!!. Does that sound reasonable ???

[1954Etype]

Without seeing the car it is difficult to judge but...... it sounds as if you will be into some serious money to get it to a reasonable standard. 20k? I unless I am waaaaay out of touch, sounds too much. Have a look at eBay.com and search for 'xke'. If you can find a LHD california car, that would/could be a better option.

[christopher storey]

I wopuldn't even think about paying 20K for this . It sounds like a real rot box : if you can see rust in multiple places, it will be far far worse in the places you can't see. The problem with a E is that it is very difficult to put right bits in isolation : once you start you are in for the long haul . LHD cars are two a penny and can be bought very cheaply in the US, ( have a look at the discussions on the Jag-lovers website) and I would imagine this is what happened many years ago with this car. You are looking at spending an absolute minimum of ?25K to put a car in this state in order, and it is far more likely that you will spend upwards of ?40K to do so , and even these figures are based on doing a lot of the subsidiary work yourself. I would not bid more than 15K for this now that the 50 year hype is dying down

[PeterCrespin]

I wopuldn't even think about paying 20K for this . It sounds like a real rot box : if you can see rust in multiple places, it will be far far worse in the places you can't see. ....I would not bid more than 15K for this now that the 50 year hype is dying down

Bid? Is there an eBay link I missed Christopher? I thought we were all flying blind, sans instrument rating

[christopher storey]

Er, well, Peter, I do have an instrument rating , although I have not renewed it ( and indeed have not flown in command) for many years ! When I was a director of a BL agency , the term "bid" was always used in the trade to indicate what one offered for a car - nothing to do with auctions

[MarkE]

There is another possibility if, as you say, the car was restored properly / bare metal repainted in the 80s, and that is if the restorer used stripper rather than sanding / blasting the paint off, and didn't clean it off properly.

I bought an XJ6 Coupe a few years back that had been restored, but the paint was flaking / bubbling around the windscreen area, the edges of wings and the bottom of the doors. The car had obviously had a lot of money spent on it, and sure enough, when I stripped the bubbling paint off, the metal was absolutely solid underneath.

Folks can easily miss a bit of paint stripper residue, and worse, strip paint on seams and joins of metal, where the stripper can leach in and be almost impossible to remove.

Unfortunately the only way to tell is to strip the paint from the area that is bubbling, and the owner may not want you to do that!

Apart from the paperwork, try to find out and get proof of what state the car came from in the USA. If it's a dry state like Southern California or Texas, you have a reasonable chance to find little rust. I was staggered when looking inside the sill of my S3 to see shinny metal....all original, and no paint whatsoever! It's no wonder that these cars rusted in the UK, and often within a year or two of coming out of the factory.

If it's from a wet / cold state, then chances are that it wouldn't be any better than a UK car. So it will then depend on whether you want originality of a shell that has all its original panels, or one that could need half of the bodywork discarding and repro stuff fitting on.

Big decisions, and if you're not familiar with bodywork in general and E types specifically, I really would advise that you get the car checked out by a professional

[eTypeG]

There is another possibility if, as you say, the car was restored properly / bare metal repainted in the 80s, and that is if the restorer used stripper rather than sanding / blasting the paint off, and didn't clean it off properly.

The car was definitely subject to a complete bare metal reatore in the states in the late 80's i have seen the photos/invoices, including an all leather interior bought from the UK costing 3K. Spending 25K let alone 40K on any e-type to restore seems very high to me when a full replacement bonnent can be bought for 4K??. Not sure what to do??.

[1954Etype]

Simple, get an independant assessor in. Pay them for a proper, written assessment.

[christopher storey]

A full replacement bonnet may be ?4000 . What you need to know is that generally, it takes between 30 and 40 hours to fit a bonnet, because it has to be trimmed to correct length, and the bottom of the wings often need either trimming or increasing in depth , and often the sills have to be leaded to match . Then there is paintwork , and for a metallic even if you did only half the car, you are talking a minimum of ?4,000 ,so that the total cost of a bonnet replacement will run into 5 figures . Furthermore, if the bonnet is shot then the frames may well not be far behind, and these are a safety critical part of the car as is the bulkhead with the frame attachments . But what you seem to overlook is that the front end ( forward of the bulkhead) is far and away the easiest and cheapest part of an E to rectify . The vast majority of cars that need doors and sills doing will in fact need new inner sills and often floors. Believe me, ?40 K is nothing. I spent that , and I did everything myself except the actual fabrication and the painting . I know of at least two people who have put 6 figures into cars, one of them a 2+2 !

I do not want to put you off, but we are being serious when we say that rectifying an E is a very , very expensive business. Buying a good one now will be far cheaper in the long run than buying what turns out to need major surgery

[eTypeG]

Simple, get an independant assessor in. Pay them for a proper, written assessment.

Do you know of or recommend anyone ?

[1954Etype]

Where are you in the country? I'll set Pete Crespin up there - he wouldn't pay a penny over the going rate!

[PeterCrespin]

Good point. I wonder what the average assessor pays to be allowed to inspect a car these days :-)

Pete