Undecided in Oz

[Downunda]

Hi all,

As I finally have the money for my dream car, I am now trying to decide on what E Type to get. For my present life style it needs to be a 2 + 2 coupe. I have been thinking about a series III V12 but this is where I would like some input from members of this board.

I have worked on old British cars since I was 17 (many, many years ago) but the only engine I have overhauled was a Mini Moke. I had decided that when I get my E Type I would try and do practically all the work myself, including the majority of an engine overhaul, if it was required. I now find myself looking at Series III E Types, (due to the purchase price) and am concerned that I would be unable to work on the V12 at all.

Is working on this engine way out of the reach of the DIY home mechanic such as me, and are there other items on the Series III that should only be done by a trained mechanic?

Any input would be very much appreciated.

[MarkE]

If you can rebuild a Mini engine you can do a Jag V12. I'm certainly no great engineer, but I can put things back together so long as the bits all fit as they should! If any sort of engineering skills are required I'm lost.

I rebuilt my engine, albeit under supervision from somebody who knew what they were doing. I just had to be slow and methodical, taking lots of notes and making lots of drawings, and reading the workshop manual.

If the worst happens, you can always put the bits into a trailer and take it to a local Jag engine builder to steer you right or finish the job.

Look upon it as a hill to climb! Very satisfying when you're at the top.

And strangely enough as you mentioned building a Moke engine, I just started work on my Aussie Mini Moke, an '81 1275 Californian with zinc bodyshell....strange world eh?! Strange car as well!!

[christopher storey]

What you need to know is that the V12 can be subject to much more severe corrosion problems than the XK . The heads can effectively become welded to the head studs making them virtually impossible to remove , and turning them into scrap . Sometimes they jam irretrievably half way up and the studs have to be sawn off . Paradoxically this problem seems to be more prevalent in your climate, for the reason that in a hot climate people are tempted to run them without antifreeze and the corrosion inhibitors contained in it. Although the V12 engine is a great piece of kit if you get a good one, for a DIY car the 6 cylinder cars are rather more practical, and certainly less complicated, and they do have the great virtue that engines are plentiful if you are not too concerned about originality

[vee12eman]

Hi,

I second what Chris says about the V12. It was my intention to rebuild my V12 myself, but time pressures forced me to have it done prifessionally in the UK before leaving for Oz. The guy that did it was a true expert with all the correct tools, but he could not dismantle it without risk of futher damage so I cut my losses and had an early XJS V12 rebuilt, using the internals from my old engine (with nescessary replacements of course). Be assured that I use plenty of corrosion inhibitor in the engine now. Nevertheless it is perfectly possible to rebuild them if the heads do come off and the engines are very strong.

My engine had been standing for years and the amount of silt and corrosion had to be seen to be believed. There are plenty of V12 donors around however, but have a look at the coolant before buying the car or a replacement engine. You want it to be clean and of course hope the seller has not just changed it to fool you! Look for signs of spillage indicating recent fluid replacement. Hopefully they won't try it as so much coolant is needed and it gets expensive, sadly that is one reason it gets neglected.

The necessary head removal tools are available on Aussie ebay and there are theories as to how best to remove them. If I had thought more about it I would have fitted the injection kit from an XJS too - it is still a project I intend to undertake when I find a donor at a sensible price, but as I rebuilt the carbs I am in no rush.

All the other work on the car I did myself, and apart from the engine it is no worse than the sixes - I wouldn't swap now!

Good luck and happy hunting, where are you in Aus?

Regards

[MarkE]

What you need to know is that the V12 can be subject to much more severe corrosion problems than the XK . The heads can effectively become welded to the head studs making them virtually impossible to remove, and turning them into scrap .

I agree with the fact that the V12 heads can get stuck, as mine did. But my 6 cylinder engine was just as bad and also had to have the studs sawn off half way up to get the head off, and this isn't an uncommon occurrence with a car from a warm climate.

The difference is that the 6 cylinder head has the engine number stamped on it, so I wanted to preserve that and spent ?1500 getting the head repaired. The V12 heads don't have any unique numbers stamped on, and I found a good pair of heads for the V12 for ?300. In fact, I found several pairs for a similar price, and still have the originals which could be fairly simply repaired if needed. The E Type V12 heads are the same as the Pre-HE XJS, and of course, the old XJ12, so supply is plentiful and cheap.

However, when looking at a V12, do determine what work the engine has had and when, and as suggested, check that it has antifreeze / corrosion inhibitor. It would be a very rare car that hasn't had the engine apart, even if just for the oil leaks and timing chain tensioner. They do tend to sludge up if not used, which causes muck to set like cement in the water jacket around the liners, which wouldn't be good in a warm climate.

This can happen with a 6 cylinder as well of course, but you can't get the sludge out of those as effectively!

[Downunda]

Hi

Thanks for the input, I am starting to feel more confident with making the decision to purchase the V12.

After the small amount of time I have spent scanning this message board I have noticed there is two topics that appear to keep coming up with regard to the series III, one is carburettor problems, and the other is removing the heads. So I am thinking that once I have an E Type to play with, the injection conversion could be a good option. The only difference is that I am not sure if there will be that many donor engines over here.

Simon, are you in Australia now?

I live in Brisbane but born in East London. I think Michal Cains Italian Job must have made a big impression on me back then, as I have a Daimler Regency, and a Mini Cooper Works Special that I am selling so that I can get my E Type.

Again thanks to you all for the help
Ian

[vee12eman]

Hi Ian,

Yes I am in Australia. The car came with me - we had a deal, I brought the car and my wife brought her dog! That way neither of us argued about it! (I win, 'cos I love the dog more than she loves the car!)

Drop me a line if you are ever down here and you can have a look at a V12 Series III if you are interested, I have made a few upgrades to accomodate the climate and my tastes, but kept the cost as low as possible.

Regards,

[Downunda]

Hi Simon,

I lived in Melbourne (Burwood East) for three years before shifting to Queensland.

I wonder how many others have done deals to get their E type. My deal is a trip back to old Blighty, and much like you, I want the holiday more than she wants the car, but I have a feeling it is going to cost me much more than just a holiday in the end.

Cheers
Ian

[abowie]

To misquote Orwell "6 cylinders good, 12 cylinders bad".
I'm in Adelaide. A good XK 6 cylinder rebuild can be had for $6k. A V12 can cost upward of $20k and the guys I deal with, who only do E types and seem pretty knowledgeable, see the V12 as the work of the devil.
There's a good reason why series 3 2+2's are so cheap...

[MarkE]

The V12 is certainly more sophisticated and refined than an XK, and if that makes it the ?work of the devil? then I?m afraid that your guys really don?t understand Jaguars.

The only thing that these engines suffer from is a lack of regular maintenance. The engine has 20 coolant hoses which need to be replaced periodically and the engine will thrive on a regular oil change?.so do all engines. It?s a big engine, so the cooling system needs to be spot-on, which just means making sure that the radiator is clear and the coolant has the right amount of inhibitor in it. The engines are incredibly long lived when given regular use and maintenance, and I know of several XJS cars that have over 300,000 miles on the clock, and one approaching 500,000 miles, and that?s only ever been apart to replace a timing chain tensioner. I don?t know of XK engines with that sort of track record.

When I stripped my engine (at 55k miles) the bores were glazed but perfect, and the crankshaft journals completely unmarked. It looked like a new engine inside.

It does take more hours to strip and rebuild a V12 than the XK, but only an increase of 50% or so. There are more components to replace, but they tend to be cheaper. For example, I upgraded my engine to UK spec from Californian spec which required a new set of pistons. The 12 were ?26 more in total than the 6 I needed for my XK.

So Andrew, if your ?experts? are wanting 3 or 4 times more to rebuild a V12 than a 6, then they are either ripping people off blind, or they really don?t have a clue what they are doing and should be avoided at all costs.

As for the S3 2+2 being cheaper because it has a V12, that?s patently not true, in the UK at least. The 2+2, S1, 2 and 3, are pretty much the same price in the UK, given an equal condition. It?s the value of the 2+2 that is low, not because it has a V12 engine fitted. Sorry, it?s the price that?s low, and the value is very high!

The S1 OTS is usually the most expensive E Type, and of course is fitted with an XK engine. The second most expensive is the S3 OTS, fitted with a V12. The most expensive of all the production E Types is the S3 Commemorative, also fitted with a V12. So I really don?t think that the V12 affects the price one way or the other, but for sure, some folks do prefer one type of engine over the other.

Luckily, there are quite a few good guys in Australia that understand the V12, and Simon is in the best town (Melbourne) as Mike Roddy is based there. An incompetent Airfix-kit mechanic like me can take a V12 apart and put it back together, but Mike builds V12s with nearly 700bhp for racing, and is currently popping a V12 into a Mk 2. You need to meet up with him Simon, if you haven?t done so already.

And Andrew, I would be looking to find other guys to do any work on my Jags than your knowledgeable E Type specialists!

6 cylinders good, 12 cylinders bad eh? Nobody told Ferrari, Lamborghini or Aston Martin that, but it did take Mercedes and BMW up until the late 80s / into the 90s to catch on to fitting the V12 into their top of the range cars. And the last time Jaguar won at Le Man, what sort of engine were they using?..yes, more work of the devil.

Mark

[Downunda]

Thanks to posts on this site I have been feeling comfortable with any car as long as it is a Jaguar that starts with the letter ?E? and ends with the word ?Type?.

Things moved quit quickly for me in the end. I was just about to hand over the money for a 1973 series III, auto, in Queensland, when my next door neighbour, a fellow car nut (and also my drinking partner) gave me the motivation to jump on a plane to Perth to have a look at a 1970 white series II, manual E Type, with wire wheels.

So now after handing over a deposit in Perth, and practically no sleep in the last 24 hours, I am back in Brisbane the very proud owner of the world?s best car. If anyone in Australia knows of a good transport company that can get the car across the Nullarbor safely, (I think it will have to be in a container) I would appreciate their comments.

Thanks
Ian

[Tony]

Or if the car is running, jump back on the plane and drive it home. At least you will get to know the car and any faults. If you join a an auto mobile association with recovery to home, then if you break down they will tow you home. That is assuming there is not a big piece of water blocking the way.

If it is not a runner then the above will not apply.

[Downunda]

Hi Tony, I had thought about that but I don?t have the time it takes to travel back.

[vee12eman]

Hi Mark,

Many thanks for the reply, even though I was not the originator of the thread! I have not had much opportunity to do any E-type stuff since before Christmas, as work, home life and a very sick VW camper (Kombi) hve got in the way. Having restored the engine bay, rebuilt the alternator, rebuilt the engine, sand-blasted and painted the tinware (essential to be in good condition on the air-cooled VW, plus fitted it all back together, finishing today, I am able to go back to the E-type next week, although it will be the brakes and handbrake in particular which need attention, I will also be fitting the Fiero fan and motor.

I completely agree about the V12 - no way would I expect to pay those sort of figures to rebuild, mine cost 2500 quid with a very well respected guy responsible - his prices are cheap, but he has excellent pedigree and works mainly on recommendation by word of mouth. His name is Brian Ball, unfortunately I no longer have contact details for him, but he can be found on the internet by contacting Grublogger, who also go to several shows in the UK.

On the whole, if you can get the heads off and the block clean, stripping and building can be done at home for waaaaaay inder the ridiculous figures quoted, even allowing for specialist tool requirements. You may need to order parts from the UK, but this is not a problem, the strong $ vs the pound and the lack of VAT more than make up for postage and the wait is not all that great.

Anyway, it seems Ian has found a Series 2 with the "safe" six cylinder engine and I applaud his choice, support for all E-types and general enthusiasm. It is however, time to stop spreading the myth that the V12 cars and engine are somehow inferior to the earlier cars. They are a little different and deep down a little more complex, but as I found, once sorted, very rewarding, totally DIY friendly and absolutely incredible to drive. I go out sometimes and just open the bonnet. Just that does it for me, then I start it and go back and have a look at the fantail exhaust, which probably moves more than the engine itself! I am sold. I am also incredibly glad I did not take the advice of another Jag enthusiast I used to know, who raced a D-type replica and seemed to know his stuff. He suggested I put a six in the car, as the V12 would be expensive to repair, difficult to convert to manual (especially 5-speed) and expensive to run. I would have missed out on the best aspect of both the car and the restoration. I look forward to getting hold of another V12 to strip, examine and rebuild myself - I'm on the lookout for one now......

Ian, I know of someone who moved an American muscle car in a container, to Perth. I'll try to contact him (he works for the same company I do so I should be able to contact him through the work email system). Anyway, his experience was rather bad in that the car was placed in the container on a wet day and arrived with corrosion on every alloy component. If possible, can I suggest that you get someone to spray a couple of cans of lanotec and/orsimilar. It may be a pain to clean (choose a warm day and pressure clean it all off - the long soak in WD40 will probably make a lot of dirt come away). My car travelled in a container from UK, it took 8 weeks, plus some storage at either end. The only problem was that a tyre went flat, which they never looked at, so by the time I went to pick the car up from the storage yard the tyre was off therim, causing great problem in moving it until we manged to get the tyre back on and inflated.

All the best, post some photos when it arrives and welcome to E-type ownership,

Regards,

[MarkE]

Our world is getting even smaller, Simon, as it was Brian Ball who rebuilt my XJR-s 6 litre engine, and the fuel injected engine for my S3 2+2 project that I sold to Peter Collins, which is running beautifully as I'm sure you're read from Peter.

He is indeed a whizz with the V12, and when I took the XJR-s lump to him to get the cam chain tensioner done, he turned the rather tatty looking engine into a work of art by having everything re-plated / powdercoated back to original spec, and cleaned up the aluminum castings so that they looked like new as well....I don't know how he did that!

Here it is at Brian's workshop....



He also gave me Alf, a completely mad oriental shorthair, as he also had a dog that he wanted to breed, and couldn't keep Alf as he would look upon the puppies as a snack. This picture was taken a couple of days after Alf arrived here, when he had somehow removed the backing paper from the cam cover sticker I was about to put on the S3, and rolled onto it. It was a sod to get off, and he seemed to want it on his side permanently!

Jaguar in his DNA I suspect!

[Mark Gordon]

Mark,
Strange. I thought that jaguars were yellow with black spots. Your photo clearly proves me wrong.
Mark

[Downunda]

Thanks for the tips, and Simon any information regarding the transport would be much appreciated.

After driving the V12 and doing some research, I was keen to purchase an E Type with a V12 but in the end it came down to, the one in Perth was, manual, better condition, had wire wheels, and a sliding rear seat. I would have been more than happy to have a V12 as I loved the sound of it, and the pictures I have seen of the engine when cleaned up look really good, and I feel it would be something I would have enjoyed working on.

In the end I am happy with my decision and am keen to get it over hear. The trouble and strife is really keen to have air con fitted, so I will be looking out for someone who can supply the gear for me to install it.

All in all I am now very happy to have fulfilled a lifelong dream of owning an E Type Jaguar

I am not sure how to post a link but it is a white one in perth, advertised on www.carsales.com.au if anyone is interested

Ian

[SteveG]

That's a nice looking car Ian. I must admit I don't know how you can resist the temptation to jump in and drive it home though

By the way, has it got wider tyres on standard rims, or is it the squarer profile that makes them look wider? The tyres just seem to look better in the arches.

[MarkE]

The car does look quite stunning, and an original Aussie delivery as well. Driving the car from Perth to Brisbane is about the same as Turkey to London.....I think I'd want to know the car a bit better before doing that trip!

[Downunda]

Thanks Mark and my thoughts exactly, to do that sort of trip it would need a full service at a minimum, a lot of preparation (spares etc), at least 5 days, a second driver, and then hope nothing goes wrong crossing the desert, and possibly a respray when I get back to Brisbane.

So I think I will stick with the idea of getting it transported.

Ian