Soundproofing

djw61 · Post by **djw61** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:29 am

I last drove my lhd series 1 coupe a few days prior to Christmas (prior to the roads being salted) and was quite comfortable. The car does have koolmat lining the cockpit as well as jute undercarpets, carpets and rubber floor mats. The chrome shift lever and hand brake warmed up slightly but were not hot. This is not the situation when I drive the car in the summer. My car is located in Upstate New York and the temperture can reach into the 90's (farenheit). One day last summer, I drove to the Saratoga Automobile Museum where Hemmings Motor News sponsors a car show (about 100 miles each way). The shift lever and hand brake were so hot it was painful to touch them. Even with all of the insulation, the interior of the car was extremely hot. I know that the black color of the car does add to the heat but heat transfer from the engine/exhaust is also to blame. I am looking forward to learning Peter's thoughts about adding insulation after he has spent a summer in Maryland.
David

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:20 am

I'll let you know! :-) though I did drive some miles in late Summer including in the 90s IIRC.

I guess it may boil down to semantics as well as thermodynamics. I assume the heat output from the engine is more or less constant. Therefore any change with the seasons is due to the seasons, not an excess from the engine in Summer. Splitting hairs I guess. That, plus skin like leather I suppose. 'Where there's no sense there's no feeling' as they say...

When I'm driving along and my feet feel like my soles are melting I'll remember to be humble! Ma?ana, I guess?

daykrolik · Post by **daykrolik** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:42 am

My E Type has stock exhaust and all heat shields present and in good condition. Without being pre-conditioned by others' opinions, I did find it a good deal toastier than XKs (120, 140 and 150) under similar conditions. Other old and new Jags I've driven either had AC or it was so long ago that I have no clear recollection. From its design, there seem to be reasons why this is true of the E. From my research, I believe Koolmat is the best thin pure thermal barrier. However, Dynamat Extreme both deadens noise and provides a measure of thermal insulation. Dynaliner is desirable in conjunction with Dynamat if heat is the primary issue. Thickness is a consideration. Koolmat is quite thin, so it does not really replace jute padding dimensionally. Since I wanted to replace the rather nasty jute, I opted for the Dynamat/Dynaliner (1/2 inch) combination. The hotter cockpit of my E was not a crisis, and I chose a medium course in terms of cost and because I wanted to replace the jute. I know from experience that gluing to Koolmat silicone requires the right glue. Also, any common trim/carpet contact adhesive sticks fine to Dynamat foil. The fact that Dynamat Extreme and Dynaliner have an adhesive pre-applied makes their application far easier, in my opinion. I wonder if Jon regrets starting all this!

Mark Gordon · Post by **Mark Gordon** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:29 pm

"One day last summer, I drove to the Saratoga Automobile Museum where Hemmings Motor News sponsors a car show (about 100 miles each way). The shift lever and hand brake were so hot it was painful to touch them."

I'm finding this thread to be very interesting. Drivers seem to be all over the map with their experiences with interior heat. David, your car seems to have just about all of the insulating factors in place and yet your shift lever and hand brake got extremely hot while driving. My car has factory cast iron manifolds, the standard heat shields and the foam insulation over the gearbox. My shift lever and hand brake get warm (I wouldn't say "hot") during extended driving in summer heat (90-100 deg F.), but never so hot that they are at all painful to touch. I wonder what could be causing such a wide range of experiences. I have no clue.

Post by **1954Etype** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:20 pm

Same here. I have the standard cast manifolds and after a hundred miles or so, the gear lever to very hot (std box). It was the same on my previous cars.

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:32 am

Have you guys with hot levers got the big squishy original foam over and around the top of the box filling the trans tunnel? I don't see how a lever can get too hot to touch if there's no hot air flowing to it and the lever is mounted in standard rubber bushes. That rules out all convection and most conduction. It clearly can't be radiation since there's a bulkhead and console in the way, so how does this heat reach the stick except modest conduction from the base? Even the ferrule is isolated by nylon from contact with the stick after they stopped using brass, so for it to get too hot to touch seems odd. I'm assuming everyone has the correct rubber gaiter on the tunnel cover and another in the console trim? Angus has the 65-66-ish single rubber jobbie with no ferrule, that pulls through the console trim. I guess that may be one less barrier and perhaps heat as well as aesthetics was the reason they went back to the more expensive gaiter system after 18 months or so?

Marks' car had the oily sponge when we took the engine out and his gear lever in 90-100F heat is only warm, as mine have been with the foam in situ. Have you guys got standard foam?

I think cabin stuffiness and yes, general heat from engine and solar gain is bound to be worst in the OTS out of any Jag ever made, as it has the smallest cabin doesn't it? Then the FHC? Maybe the 120 Coupe has the next smallest before it enlarged for later series?

Pete

Post by **Heuer** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:33 am

After fitting the Koolmat I no longer have a hot gear lever or hand brake.

Post by **1954Etype** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:13 am

PeterCrespin wrote:Have you guys with hot levers got the big squishy original foam over and around the top of the box filling the trans tunnel? I don't see how a lever can get too hot to touch if there's no hot air flowing to it and the lever is mounted in standard rubber bushes. That rules out all convection and most conduction. It clearly can't be radiation since there's a bulkhead and console in the way, so how does this heat reach the stick except modest conduction from the base? Even the ferrule is isolated by nylon from contact with the stick after they stopped using brass, so for it to get too hot to touch seems odd. I'm assuming everyone has the correct rubber gaiter on the tunnel cover and another in the console trim? Angus has the 65-66-ish single rubber jobbie with no ferrule, that pulls through the console trim. I guess that may be one less barrier and perhaps heat as well as aesthetics was the reason they went back to the more expensive gaiter system after 18 months or so?

Marks' car had the oily sponge when we took the engine out and his gear lever in 90-100F heat is only warm, as mine have been with the foam in situ. Have you guys got standard foam?

I think cabin stuffiness and yes, general heat from engine and solar gain is bound to be worst in the OTS out of any Jag ever made, as it has the smallest cabin doesn't it? Then the FHC? Maybe the 120 Coupe has the next smallest before it enlarged for later series?

Pete

Yes I have the insulation but not the big oily sponge. Maybe that's the problem.

djw61 · Post by **djw61** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:08 pm

I also have the "single rubber jobbie" with no ferrule around the stick shift and have the Koolmat but no foam insulation.
David

Mark Gordon · Post by **Mark Gordon** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:33 pm

"Yes I have the insulation but not the big oily sponge. Maybe that's the problem."

You might try Castrol 20/50. It seems to work well on my sponge.

Post by **1954Etype** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:15 pm

Mark Gordon wrote:"Yes I have the insulation but not the big oily sponge. Maybe that's the problem."

You might try Castrol 20/50. It seems to work well on my sponge.

Oh very funny :D . I have 2 pieces of jute glued together. I might put some effort into tracking the right thing down now.

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:44 pm

The sponge is unlike any other trim on the car Angus. It is a large item - the size of a small pillow when unsquashed. It TOTALLY fills the area above and around the gearstick and the gearbox behind the bell housing. It therefore not only provides a direct insulation effect from radiant and convected heat from the hot gearbox, it stops air from blowing through the rad, around the engine and exhaust, and then up the trans tunnel behind the bell.

Any air flowing into the trans tunnel is going to heat the stick after a while. There should be zero air movement there because any air is going to be hotter than ambient for sure. A couple of pieces of jute can't do the total sael job of a thick shaped sponge crammed in around the top and upper sides of the box, totally protecting the gear lever.

The good news is that although the original is a moulded affair, a dirt-cheap piece of 3" thick upholstery foam about 18" x 12" will do the trick. Just take the console and tunnel cover off, pierce the foam by pushing it down over the bare point of the gear lever, then tuck it in all round and squish it under the trans tunnel cover when putting everything back together.

Anyone who hasn't got this part is asking for excess heat. I've always used it and have not suffered. Mark has it and has no probs in much hotter weather than the UK. Someone, somewhere, will still find things uncomfortable, which is to be expected - but please let's all start from the same baseline instead of comparing apples and oranges.

Pete

Post by **1954Etype** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:20 pm

Thanks Pete so I'll go and get some fruit to put around the gear stick. Pippins or granny smiths?

Mark Gordon · Post by **Mark Gordon** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:57 pm

Definitely use Granny Smiths, but be sure to put a little brown sugar and cinnamon on it before you shove it down the gear shifter.

Simon Bolton · Post by **Simon Bolton** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:57 am

Hi guys
Sorry but just to carry on a little with this thread, I am a 'Fat Mat' man(not physically of course) and have found a big difference in both sound and heat insulation- I guess its all down to individual preference and interpretation. What has got my attention though is the oily sponge which I have never heard of and may as well fit whilst I have the tunnel lid off to shorten my gearstick. I happen to have just removed an old seat sponge from my kawa Z1....seems to be about the right size but may be a little hard for this situation-I am also concerned with it pressing on the wiring for my recently installed overdrive...an observations welcome.
My thanks
Simon

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:26 pm

The front 18" of a bike dual seat would be about the right size and shape back to front with the taper towards the propshaft. The real thing is soft and squishy like the kind of yellow upholstery foam they sell in big chunks in street markets and bike seat foam can be firmer sometimes but I'd give it a go. And of course the only original foams I've seen have been 40+ years old so who knows what they were like originally?

Remember the primary purpose is to prevent hot air blowing from the engine into the funnel-like transmission tunnel, so if it fills the space it does the job. Your OD wires should be fine. Some switches are side-entry screw terminals and later ones are spade fitting which protrude higher. The actual harness for reversing and top gear switches runs close to the top cover and is held by a couple of metal P clips under some of the top cover bolts so is held firm. With sensible installation there should be no problem. I'd probably test a bit of your foam in petrol and oil to check it's polyurethane and not natural sorbo rubber.

Pete

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:28 pm

Well, I don't want to cause dissension but the sponge I bought from SNGB recently, at vast expense for what it is ( about 24 quid IIRC) was anything but large and squashy like the old one. It was about 20 inches square and perhaps 3/4 inch thick. I can only conclude that when they have been subjected to years of oil leakage they swell up to the size Peter talks about - his description certainly fits the one I threw away and the one in my other E which I have not replaced

kingzetts · Post by **kingzetts** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:24 am

As my car has a T5 box, I had to fabricate a custom gearbox tunnel cover and I initially used offcuts of thick foam rubber to seal the gaps between box and tunnel to good effect. More recently in pursuit of better sound deadening I have cast up some fairly dense urethane foam by lining the gap with clingfilm and pouring in a two-part expanding foaming mix which sets to a rubber-like consistency. This seems to block hot air and also blocks sound better than the lighter foam rubber.

The interior of the cabin is lined out with Koolmat and I have not found heat soak from underneath to be an issue even on hot days in the south of France.

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:34 pm

Have you got a link for the rubbery two-pack stuff? I've only see the stiffer foam DIY kits. Why did you have to make a new top cover just because it was a T5 box? Aren't the available kits all designed with the short tail housing to bring the lever out in the right spot?

kingzetts · Post by **kingzetts** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:19 pm

Pete,
When I bought it my car already had the T5 but only a nastily hacked-around original cover. The gear lever is in the right place but judging by the remains of the old cover the shape of the top of the boxes are sufficiently different that the original cover would foul the top of the T5. Moss boxes (mine is a 3.8 ) may have different shaped tops and covers to the later Jag boxes, I don't know - but when I looked at the price of buying an original cover to modify I decided to start from scratch instead, which was much cheaper.

The PU foam I used was Polyfoam 022 medium from MB Fibreglass - see here;

http://www.mbfg.co.uk/foam-materials/foam-medium.html

I did not get as much expansion as the description led me to expect but I think this was probably due to working in a cool garage in winter.

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