Phil Hallewell Wire Wheels

[PeterCrespin]

But if you are going to enter your car in a competitive race surely the only sensible option is to fit solid wheels as supplied in period by Dunlop, Wolfrace and Magna by J. A. Pearce? I assume all wire wheels now produced are triple laced - never seen 'double laced'

Who said anything about racing? Probably every one of us has made 'go faster' upgrades and don't race. Are you suggesting that to do a period factory upgrade it only makes sense to modify to the max? Then everyone who has tweaked their car a little bit but not gone full race has presumably wasted their time and money. Which is going to put practically everyone here in the doghouse, including your good self.

There's nothing illogical about fitting Jag-spec competition-laced wheels. they are stronger than any other type including Borranis unless yours are triple laced? Lacing patterns differ and triple-laced is not to be confused with the cross-three pattern. You're therefore not correct in your assumption. making one of my own, I assume everyone here has cross-three wheels and practically nobody has triple laced.

It's a fascinating subject actually but anyone with centre-laced wheels probably shouldn't research it as they'll discover they have arguably the weakest type :-)

[Heuer]

Pete

I was not arguing about the lacing, just the need for 6" wide wheels vs what Jaguar offered - 5" all round or 5.5" "on the rear only" for racing. A quick look at the parts catalogue shows the "Racing rear road wheel" as having three types of spoke (front, centre and rear) whereas the standard road wheel only has two types (long and short), hence the 'triple laced' description I presume. So Jaguar did not offer 5.5" competition wheels for the front only the rear. Tyres are 6.40x15 as standard and 6.0x15 front, 6.50x15 rear for racing, for what it is worth.

So it seems the easy way to find if your wheels are 'competitive' or not is to see how many lengths of spoke you have. Here is a MWS triple lace wheel I believe:



Borrani for comparison:



So another failure point for the concours purists if they have three length's of spoke

[PeterCrespin]

I was not arguing about the lacing, just the need for 6" wide wheels vs what Jaguar offered - 5" all round or 5.5" "on the rear only" for racing. A quick look at the parts catalogue shows the "Racing rear road wheel" as having three types of spoke (front, centre and rear) whereas the standard road wheel only has two types (long and short), hence the 'triple laced' description I presume.

Hopefully neither of us was arguing - not my intention at all. I was just, ahem, 'qualifying' shall we say, you assuming that all wheels are triple-laced today and your statement that you had not seen double-laced wheels. I only did this to point out the opposite is the case - all stock Jag wheels are double-laced and practically nobody has triple-laced wheels

So Jaguar did not offer 5.5" competition wheels for the front only the rear. Tyres are 6.40x15 as standard and 6.0x15 front, 6.50x15 rear for racing, for what it is worth.

Tout ? fait. The competition prep booklet Jag provided from launch explicitly states that two special offset rear wheels (C18922) are required to use 6.50 rear tyres. This echoes their long track experience with D-types which initially came with 6.00 tyres all round but by the end were using 6.50 on the rear, as mine does.

So it seems the easy way to find if your wheels are 'competitive' or not is see how many lengths of spoke you have

Not nece-celery... Measuring differences of a few millimetres by eye ain't that easy and it is technically possible I think to triple-lace a wheel without three lengths of spoke, depending on the design of hub and rim. Not Jag hubs maybe, but still. Triple-laced refers, as stated originally, to the fact that the spokes are arranged in three circumferential rings or rows, not two as per normal wire wheels. So the easy way to tell is look to see if the wheel looks like the first photo not the second.

It's easy to see The outer row of the triple-lace wheel is much more 'gappy' because half the spokes have been removed for lacing into a third row deeper in the well of the rim. For any wheel you just have to look if the spokes are arranged in three rows at the rim - the rationale being that the greater the spread between the innermost and outermost rows, the stiffer the wheel in high lateral loading - AKA racing, or enthusiastic cornering.

Yours amicably etc.

[Heuer]

Thanks Pete, I learn something new everyday! So the third row of spokes (on a Jaguar wheel) appear to be fixed to the lip of the hub and the gaps between the spokes at the rim are there because of the total of 72 spokes, 24 of them have been relocated for added lateral strength. The double laced versions do seem to look a lot better compared to the gappy 'competition' variety - something the OP might want to consider with his order. Don't think I have ever seen (or noticed) a car fitted with the correct competition wheels at the rear and standard ones at the front. As Jaguar only supplied the competition wheels painted silver they should be easy to spot. Anyone able to find a picture?

[Pim]

I have been looking at competetion wheels as well, because I think they look good, but not in this level of detail. I have seen cars with comp wires a number of times, but almost certainly on all wheels, otherwise I would have noticed the front different from the rear. This is the first time I hear only the rear wheels should be comp wires.

Not sure I understand the difference though, apart from the visual aspect. I see the extra ring of spokes on the hub, not on the rim though.

[PeterCrespin]

If you look at the comp wheel you see in effect a 48-spoke centre-laced wheel with an extra 24 edge spokes as per the normal wheel. That's not 'exactly' the case but you can visualise the 'belt and braces' structure from whence comes its extra lateral strength whilst the torque and weight-bearing capacities remain those of a normal 72-spoke AFAIK.

You're right in that one practically never sees a car with comps only on the rear, just as one rarely sees painted wires. Zoli Kovacs runs an immaculate 3.8 FHC with chromed comps all round although I'm not 100% sure if they're 5.5" or 6.0". I suppose people don't want the bother of a spare that only correctly fits one end, and to come back to your earlier point there are mild downsides to oversize rims all round. I think there's no doubt larger rims & tyres offer lots more grip but they change the feel of the car and make it somewhat more challenging to correct when it finally does snap round at higher corner speeds and G forces than the more forgiving 185 size.

I did the Virginia Challenge Championship in my FHC a few weeks ago where I got first in class (of a smallish field I hasten to add) running fresh 185 Vredesteins on 6" Minilites. My time, however, was nearly 4% or 2 seconds slower than my only previous JCNA slalom which I won outright in a Series 2 automatic XJ coupe. Yes, the coupe had triple SUs to my FHC's de-restricted twin Stranglebergs, and yes the June course was more gravelly. But I think the main reason the heavy XJC was quicker was its wide low-profile tyres of something like 245/45 section because I tried that car again and was quicker than in my E. The slalom course is all about grip and the big car had lots more than I did on rinky-dink 185s, even on 6" rims.

Incidentally, there's a Jaguar video of the Richmond event on their web site and by fluke I'm seen in the silver Minilite FHC mugging it up for the camera, slaloming John Larson's XJC and spinning Keith Bertenshaw's Tempero D-type. See the Virginia event link on www.interactivejaguar.com

Pete



Pete

[PeterCrespin]

Better link:

http://tinyurl.com/lfksnhc

Incidentally, the orange F-type was hammered to within an inch of its life on the slalom course for extended periods with their tester giving rides to all and sundry. Some of us also got to drive it ourselves on the course at close of play. It was constantly bouncing off the rev limiter all day and came up smiling. I think we can say it was a minor moment of history seeing Jaguar's first 2-seater since the E-type taking part in it's first 'competition' event. Naturally, like Graham Hill at Oulton in '61, the F-type got fastest time of the day on its debut.

I can now add Virginia International Raceway to the list of tracks I have raced at. Unfortunately it wouldn't be true to say it was one of the ones I'd raced 'on'. That's because the Challenge Championship took place in the umpteen acre Disabled Car Park, which says it all really :-)

[Pim]

Great. Not supported on iPad. Will watch it on my computer then .....

[Heuer]

One advantage of that type of lacing means they will be a lot easier to clean!

Wider wheels with suitable tyres will give more grip simply because the rubber footprint is much bigger. Just look at the size of the rear wheels on the F-Type for instance. All the Lightweight's have wide wheels (8"/7") because changes in handling are accepted and compensated for by the driver on the track. It brings us back to my original comments on how much we want our experience of driving an E-Type to move away from the way it was designed and delivered - the real thing or a caricature?

[kingzetts]

Neil asked me to send him some pictures of my wheels which I have done and I thought I'd post them here so others can see what the 6"/185 combo on centre-laced wheels looks like - my OTS has a standard ride height, by the way.

[Heuer]

John

That combination looks superb in keeping the look of the E-Type without getting into the hot hatch look of profile tyres not filling the arches.

[Cgarside]

Kingzetts
What types do you have on your 6 in rims.
Chris

[Heuer]

Look like Dunlop SP Sport to me.

[kingzetts]

No, they're Vredesteins, quite old ones and will need changing soon (due to age, not wear).

[kingzetts]

David,
Glad you like my setup. I just wish I was blasting round France this week like you instead of working!

[Heuer]

This is my FHC - 5" wheels fitted with Dunlop SP Sport 185's:



The 6" wheels look good with 185 tyres but I still think the 5" are more beautiful and delicate because the spokes are longer.

[Heuer]

I found this pictture a while back (on J-L I think) showing 185 tyres on 5" and 6" wheels:

Can't say the extra 1" makes that much difference!

[neil4444]

Hi everyone,

Thanks again for all the advice. I've been on holiday in Guernsey with the family for the past week but have been following responses with interest. I'll be honest & admit that I hadn't twigged exactly what the competition wires were so I'm very grateful for pics. I thought I was buying a stronger quality standard wheel but hadn't realised there was a different pattern of spokes. After John sent me the photos of his lovely looking S1 with the 6" centrelaced wheels I was sold on them. However the same day a beautiful black S1 coupe came past me near St Peters Port wearing its original 5" wires which also looked beautiful. I finally arrived on a compromise & have changed my order with Phil from the original 6" competition to 5.5" centrelaced.

Cheers,

Neil

[neil4444]

Wheel progress...

[Heuer]

So we seem to have a consensus there are three types of lacing available for E-Type wheels (weakest first):

1. Centre laced

48 short spokes from the centre of the rim to the inner hub and 24 long spokes from the centre of the rim to the outer part of the hub. Prone to flexing when driven hard:


2. Outer laced (standard Jaguar)

36 short spokes from centre of rim to the inner hub and 36 long spokes from outer edge of rim to outer hub. Gives added lateral strength.


3. Triple laced (aka Competition)

24 short spokes from centre of rim to inner hub, 24 medium spokes from centre of rim to outer hub and 24 long spokes from outer edge of rim to outer hub for even greater lateral strength.


Each will affect the look and stance of the car in a different way. Offset was different for each series. Offset on wheels is the measurement between the mounting surface of a wheel to the center line of the wheel:
S1 = 13/16" (20.6mm) inset (negative)
S2 = 23/32" (18.3mm) inset (due to the different style of hub)
S3 = ?? (some 6" wire wheels are made to the S3 offset so can cause problems when fitted to S1/2 cars e.g. Borrani).
Note: Genuine factory 5.5" competition wheels have the correct offset for the rear!

To Measure Wheel Offset find the overall width of the wheel. Divide this width in two to give the centre-line depth. Lay a straight edge across the inner rim of the wheel. Measure from the straight edge to the mounting rim of the wheel. Subtract the centre-line depth from the mounting rim depth. This gives the offset. Positive offset indicates that the hub centre (mounting surface) is toward the outside of the car; negative offset indicates that the hub centre is closer to the IRS.