Wire Wheels

patteian · Post by **patteian** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:09 pm

Need to replace my wheels, although serviceable most of the chrome has gone on the spokes and rims. I believe they are original but the tyres are 195/75R15 not 185HR15. Ideally I would like to keep the tyres, they are in good condition and have little wear.

It is likely due to advice I will plump for Daytons, a couple of questions:

1. Should these tyres fit the 5J x 15 wheel, since I cannot find markings on my existing wheels I cannot confirm the wheel size.

2. When buying new wheels how do you get the tyres fitted and balanced. I had heard wire wheels should be balanced by specialist.

Regards

Ian.

Post by **Heuer** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:45 pm

Ian

Your existing tyres will fit on 5" wide wheels. First you need to check the age of those tyres because if they are more than 10 years old you should not be driving on them regardless of wear. There is a number on the sidewall after the DOT - three digits (e.g 128) if the tyres were made in the '80's, three digits and a triangle if they were made in the '90's and four digits if they are after 2000. First two digits are the week, last is the year. So 128 = March 1988, 128Δ = March 1998 and 1208 = March 2008. But even then you should not be using those tyres as they are only speed rated up to 112 mph which means they are not up to the manufacturers specification (VR = 149mph). Regardless of the speed you are travelling your insurance company could refuse to pay out in the event of an accident. If you are wedded to those tyres then you need to inform your insurance company of the changed specification.

There is nothing much to choose between Dayton and MWS wheels so go for the best deal. You do indeed need an experienced tyre shop to fit and balance wire wheels basically because most modern tyre shops do not have the correct hub for their equipment. Suggest you give Longstone Tyres a call and ask for Dougal. They can supply a set of MWS wire wheels (chrome or stainless steel) complete with new rubber of your choice fitted and balanced, by mail order if necessary. http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/

Car-Nut · Post by **Car-Nut** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:44 pm

If youre a Club member check whos giving the best discount

patteian · Post by **patteian** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:30 pm

Looks like my USA manufactured tyres are 3 digit without delta, I would guess 83... Seems a shame really but rubber degrades and safety is paramount etc.

In order to avoid a huge cost on tyres has anyone tried 195/65R15 on their wheels. These seem to be a common size and therefore much, much cheaper.

Moeregaard · Post by **Moeregaard** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:09 pm

Ian, David's advice is spot on regarding aging rubber. This issue has come into its own on this side of the pond due to the large number of cars that are restored, only to become garage queens that are taken to the occasional meet. It should also be assumed that old tires will have old tubes, and the rubber flappers may be on their last legs as well. Since you're replacing your wheels the latter isn't an issue, but I thought it worth mentioning.

You will love your Daytons. The stainless construction means no more flaking chrome and broken spokes. They're that good.

dougal · Post by **dougal** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:38 pm

Hi

An important point to make with fitting wire wheels is that you cannot fit a 65 profile tyre with tubes. I know they make so called tubeless wire wheels these days, but I wouldn't use them without a tube. We have come across several problems with them.

A 195/65R15 will be nearly an inch too small in radius compared to a correct tyre sizes.

There is no need to fit anything other than a correct tyre, there is plenty of choice. and just recently Pirelli have just remanufactured the 185VR15 CA67 Pirelli Cinturato, which is the perfect tyre for a Pre Power steering E-Type. In the 60's fitting a Cinturato was one of the best upgrades you could do to your car and it still is today. They are new tyres made with new Moulds and modern compounds but designed to make the car handle and look the way it should but with a grippier compound to improve stopping power under braking.

The only advantages to fitting fatter tyres for road use are:-

1/ fat modern tyres are cheap
2/ a greater foot print will improve stopping power, in the dry. though this comes at the expense of the handling

http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/Pirelli-Cinturato.php

speedyK · Post by **speedyK** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:20 am

dougal wrote:I know they make so called tubeless wire wheels these days

So are the original wire wheels not usable without tubes?

dougal wrote:We have come across several problems with them.

Can you please explain what kind of problems?

Post by **Heuer** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:55 pm

Suggest you contact Dougal directly - 01302714072 - he is very knowledgeable and great fun.

Dave K · Post by **Dave K** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:01 pm

There must be 1000's of E-Types running around with Dayton wire wheels with no tubes in. I have run mine for 10 years and never a problem. I can name ten more E-Type owners who will say the same.
What does Dougal base this on? at the end of the day he's a tyre fitter not a wire wheel designer / manufacturer if Dayton or MWS say their wire wheel is a tubeless design then that's as good as it gets for me.

Dave

Post by **1954Etype** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:21 pm

I'm running Daytons and recently had to have a tube fitted due to a leak around a spoke. Eventually I can see me fitting tubes all round. Still better than non tubeless rims though as in the event of a puncture the chances are the tyre still won't rapidly deflate

Post by **Heuer** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:44 am

Dave

Dougal has been supplying tyres for classic road and race cars for years so he is at the epicentre when things go wrong. To be honest I have no idea what his thoughts are on this which is why I suggested giving him a call. He is funny, honest and forthright so will tell you how it is with no bull or sales patter. He races classics, attends almost every race meet in Europe along with many car club get together's and a visit to Bawtry is always fascinating. Last time I was there two Bugatti T35's had driven in and were on axle stands whilst the apprentice was trying to figure out how to remove the tyres from the split rim alloys. As we walked past Dougal's only comment was "Don't cross thread those screws, those wheels are priceless". I trust Andrew Turvey to tell me about E-Type's, Rob Beere to tell me about XK engines and Dougal Cawley to educate me about tyres. As far as Dayton and MWS go their job is to move as much product as possible out of the factory doors but feedback of experience on the road will invariably only be shared with the tyre fitters.

I will however give him a call tomorrow and ask him to post a response to these questions on the Forum.

dougal · Post by **dougal** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:55 pm

1954Etype wrote:I'm running Daytons and recently had to have a tube fitted due to a leak around a spoke.

This is exactly the problem we come across. We have supplied tyres to people that have fitted them to cars. They thought we had supplied faulty tyres because they have had slow punctures but then have found air coming out around the spokes. It is the tubeless technology that is being used that I do not have confidence in. For now the silicone in the rims that seal the spoke heads can move but what worries me more than anything is next time they have tyres fitted, because sometimes in fitting the silicone will be moved or damaged. No car with wire wheels in the 50's and 60's ran tubeless and there is no need to run tubeless now because 70% profile tyres were not invented till the very end of the 60's and any full profile or 70% profile tyre can be run with tubes.

Longstone are agents for Borrani wire wheels http://www.borrani.co.uk/ which are excellent. They refuse to use stainless steel spokes on classic wheels and they also will not offer the 'sealed' tubless system that we are talking about here. They invented a whole new technique of making tubless wire wheels which is a much more engineering based technique of overcoming the leakage problem: http://www.ruoteborrani.com/modern/technique.php

speedyK · Post by **speedyK** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:27 pm

dougal wrote:there is no need to run tubeless

You make it sound as if tubeless was a bad idea. Surely the opposite is the case? I thought that the main reason for using tubeless tyres is that they don't suffer complete, sudden blow out so easily? And thus, the advent of tubeless tyres meant: no need to run tubed.

When I was running on wire wheels with tubes in the early 70s, I always was a little concerned about the risk of a blow-out. It never happened but, ironically, soon after when I had swapped to tubeless tyres (on steel rims), I did have a front tyre suddenly deflate at 100mph. It stayed centered on the rim and, with gentle steering input, I was able to reach the hard shoulder without drama. Would a tubed tyre have been equally easy to control?

dougal wrote: Borrani (...) refuse to use stainless steel spokes (...) http://www.ruoteborrani.com/modern/technique.php

??? ? in that link it says, "AISI 304 stainless steel spokes are used for both the X-Ray and S-Ray range."

I'm more confused now than before you posted!

:?

Dave K · Post by **Dave K** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:42 pm

We should start a poll to see how many people on this site are using either Dayton or MWS tubeless wire wheels and how many have had a problem.

Angus have you put tubes now in all your wheels?

Dave

Post by **1954Etype** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:56 pm

Dave

not yet but am planning to over the winter.

Post by **Heuer** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:51 pm

speedyK wrote: I'm more confused now than before you posted!

Borrani have developed new technology which allows them to use s/s spokes in an alloy rim without the need for sealant or banding to accommodate tubeless tyres: "The modern Borrani wire wheels are tubeless. Air tightness is guaranteed by a patented system of O-rings, mounted in a chamber specially designed for the spoke head. Air tightness is guaranteed for temperatures ranging from -30? C to + 110? C." At the moment they are only available for some small modern cars as the S-Ray and X-Ray brands - http://www.ruoteborrani.com/modern/ They do not use s/s spokes on their classic car wire wheels.

Never had a problem with tubes personally; a bit like worrying the E Type does not have airbags, traction control, ABS, head restraints, pre tension seat belts etc etc.

Post by **Heuer** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:16 pm

I have been doing some research into the various types of wire wheel on offer to see if I can arrive at a consensus on the materials and methods used. My observations are:

1. Stainless steel wire is strong but brittle, so under stress is not elastic enough to absorb side forces which can result in spoke heads snapping. Borrani uses heat treated 39NCD/4 carbon steel so it has strength with flexibility, priority number one for a wire wheel. Stainless is an unsuitable material for spokes especially for race or high performance vehicles. Source - Ruote Borrani

2. Tubeless wire wheels can be problematic because they use silicone sealant between the spoke heads and the rim to ensure they are air tight. The sealant can be damaged during tyre fitting or when tightening the spoke nipples, something which needs to be done regularly on MWS wheels

(Source - me). Banding tape is an alternative but is also susceptible to damage. Borrani use a patented system of O rings to get an air tight seal but they do not offer this system on their Classic wire wheels as yet. Source - Longstone Tyres

3. Air leaking from spokes seems a fairly common occurrence with tubeless wire wheels - there are 288 spokes on the car so the chances of one seal failing are fairly high. Tyre pressure should be checked regularly if you are using this system and certainly before each journey. Dave K posted the question on Jag-Lovers and it was surprising how many people with Dayton tubeless wheels had witnessed leaks. Source - Jag-Lovers

4. Tubeless tyres and wheels are inherently safer than tube tyres and wheels. The tyre and rim assembly form an air container, to seal and contain the compressed air inside the assembly. The tyre has a halobutyl or chlorobutyl lining on its inside which is airtight. A tubeless tyre also comes with a soft rubber chaffer, distinct from a rubberised fabric chaffer in a tubed tyre. This works as an all-round air seal between the tyre and rim. If a sharp object penetrate a tubeless tyre, the air loss is not sudden. The tyre/wheel assembly continues to perform its function for some time before going flat.

Tubeless tyre beads are designed to seat on the rim bead area with higher interference fit as compared to a tube type tyre. In the event of air loss the chances of bead unseating from the rim is less, therefore providing higher safety. They are also lighter and have a lower rolling resistance improving unsprung weight and fuel economy. They are cheaper to buy. Source: most major tyre manufacturers

5. A tubeless tyre can be used with a tube and if the tube is punctured it will still perform as intended. Unfortunately modern tubeless tyres are not designed to have tubes, so there is very little attention paid to manufacturing them with a smooth interior. Expect to find a lot of raised moulding marks on the inside, like a rectangular grid of small ridges. Tubes tend to squirm around inside the tyre as they flex under load. The little rubber ridges inside the tubeless tyre can eventually abrade the tube to cause stress cracks and pressure failure. If you will be using a tube run a electric palm sander with fine paper around the inside of the tubeless tire to remove the moulding flash leaving the inner surface as smooth as possible and never leave any manufacturer's stickers inside the tyre. Some manufacturers suggest a tubeless tyre fitted with a tube should be downgraded to a lower speed rating or even a maximum of 130kph unless the tubes are fitted by a specialist. Seek specialist advice if you are going to use tubes in tubeless tyres although the biggest problem is finding a tube that will fit a tyre with a lower than 70% profile Source - everywhere you look, everyone you speak to!

6. Tubed tyre catastrophic deflation does not appear to be a common occurrence and failure is more likely to be because of inexpert fitting rather than a puncture. A high speed blowout with a tubeless tyre run at the incorrect pressure because of leaks means it is an equal or greater risk to your safety.

Conclusion seems to be
- avoid stainless steel spokes as they are brittle and confer no advantage over chromed or painted steel (they still get dirty and are just as difficult to keep clean!)
- tubeless wire wheels are prone to leak especially after maintenance (tightening spokes, changing tyres) so check tyre pressures regularly and before each journey
- you can use tubes in certain tubeless tyres but expert advice is required regarding size and fitting. '185-195-205/70-15'; '205-215-215/70-15'; '225-235-225/70-235/70-15' are available from Michelin.
- you need to ensure the interior surface of the tubeless tyre is smooth, free from moulding marks and stickers before fitting a tube
- tubed tyres on wire wheels have been used for years and when correctly fitted are not more prone to catastrophic failure than tubeless tyres run at low pressure
- carry a spare inner tube if you are using tubed tyres on a tour because getting a replacement in the event of a puncture could be difficult as many depot's do not keep them in stock
- if you are risk averse, why are you driving an E-Type?

adv_rider · Post by **adv_rider** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:54 pm

My mech installed the brand new 185VR15 Michelin tires yesterday and today the front left blew out while doing >120KMH on a right curve ..... I'm still cleaning the seat and the cabin :)

I think it was an installation mistake, but I also think it was the lack of new rimstrips or flaps (?) (I don't know the exact name)

Can somebody help me where I can find new rimstrips that fit my original wheels in USA?

thank in advance.

Post by **Heuer** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:10 pm

Rim strips are used an bicycle wheels and tyres - you should not need them on car wheels and I don't even know if they are available. Does sound like a mistake during fitting but what leads you to suspect that?

adv_rider · Post by **adv_rider** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:20 pm

Heuer wrote:Rim strips are used an bicycle wheels and tyres - you should not need them on car wheels and I don't even know if they are available. Does sound like a mistake during fitting but what leads you to suspect that?

I suspect, because I was not present when they fitted the tires and tubes ... they may have not grind the rubber inside of the tire or removed any decal or something. No external element found yet that may have punctured the tire/tube. The tubes I got are 185/195R15 Michelin tubes with TR-13 offset rubber stem. is this ok for this wheels?

PS: I found these http://partsxks.com/i-7085520-17-9600-1 ... -four.html .. David, are you saying these thing are not needed?

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