E-Type Spinners

[Heuer]

Does anyone have photos of the early E-Type spinners alongside the later (larger and heavier) version I can use in our 'Factory Fit' thread? I believe the smaller spinners were also fitted to the saloons if that is any help.

[PeterCrespin]

Never heard of them. Will be interested to see what turns up. I know there are 42mm spinners for racers and 52mm for road cars but they obviously aren't interchangeable as the entire hub and tapers are different. I've noticed subtle differences between what I assumed were original and repro spinners - with more squared-off edges on the wings etc. - but nothing that stuck me as a different spinner type.

Pete

[Heuer]

I first heard about this from Lionel who supplies the spinner removal tool. He realised there were two types of spinner which is why he needed people to measure theirs and fill out the dimension form before he supplied. He told me the repro spinners were most certainly larger.


Now it could be just the repro's are bigger/heavier but he seemed to think there were two types originally and some cars had a mix of them, hence he needed all four measured. From MGAGuru: "Rudge-Whitworth pattern knock off spinners are made commonly in 32, 42, 52 mm sizes (and larger), as well as in both coarse and fine threads, either 8 or 12 threads per inch. Knockoff nuts are made in two ear, three ear, and octagonal drive variations. Material can be either steel or brass (both chrome plated). There are subtle variations in shape of the front face and shoulders and face markings. Generally speaking the knock off nuts are interchangeable between applications as long as thread and diameter match." This picture is from Sarto's site:

"Jaguar 52mm and 42mm spinners"

The E-Type uses the 52mm/8tpi (maximum size of outer bearing which can be used with the hub) wheel type spinner so I don't expect the difference to be as large as seen in that photo.

Just measured a repro spinner: 1086gms, D= 10.4cms, H= 3.6cms, ear at widest point = 52mm, hub diameter= 73mm

What I want is a picture of the two types of spinner next to each other and, crucially, stamped 'Jaguar'.

[richard btype]

Well I never!!!

[neil4444]

This is off my 62 OTS. D=10.2, H=3.6 Ear width = 42, weight = 850g (was on the cooking scales mind). I'm afraid I don't have a repro to sit alongside it though.

[Heuer]

Thanks Neil

That suggests the originals are 8 oz lighter than the repros, no small amount! Any more data (please)?

[neil4444]

All approx as its hard to judge where the edges are due to the fillets:
T1 = 6mm
T2 = 11mm
T3 = 11mm

On the back, the thickness of the outer wall is 5mm & inner wall is 3mm. Depth of the screw thread wall (if that makes sense) is 30mm It could of course be lighter due to missing chrome & one or 2 chunks taken out the ears :) Stamped inside is

1467
RH
AB
Spinner marked Right (Off) Side = 1466 LH AB
Spinner marked Left (Near) Side = 1467 RH AB

So presumably coded based on thread. Btw, if I measure the ears to widest part of the fillet I get roughly same measurements as Dave for T2 & T3I was just going to replace them with repros but now they might be different I may decide to rechrome. Although they are now making rather useful (albeit a bit oily) paperweights in my office :)
Regards,

Neil

[Dave K]

Here are the measurements of mine:

T1 = 8.5mm
T2 = 15mm
T3 = 13mm
H = 37mm
Weight = 850 grams
D = 103mm
Ear width = 43

All measured using a vernier.

Markings inside are - 1466 LH AB.

Dave

[Heuer]

So we know the repro spinners are different to original and weight seems to be the quickest way to tell the difference. Half a pound is quite a lot though so maybe they are made of a different material?

Just bought a set of NOS Jaguar spinners and they are very different to the repro ones. Basically the repro's look fat compared to the originals specifically on the shoulder between the ears and the Jaguar name. They also screw onto the hubs a lot easier and more smoothly. I will see if I can take some meaningful photos over the weekend and report back.

[Heuer]

Now had the opportunity to compare three sets of reproduction spinners and two sets of originals - one set being NOS Jaguar originals. They are very different and I do wonder how a decent machine shop could be given an original to copy and come up with this mess! Firstly some measurements which I think are more meaningful than the ones required for the spinner tool:

Original:
Height - 38mm (1.5")
Diameter - 101.6mm (4")
Outer wall thickness - 6.5mm (1/4")
Inner wall thickness - 5.4mm (7/32")
Depth from top of wall to bottom of casting - 31.6mm (1 1/4")
Weight - 885gms (31oz)

Reproduction:
Height - 35mm (1 3/8")
Diameter - 106.3mm (4 3/16")
Outer wall thickness - 8.6mm (11/32")
Inner wall thickness - 5.1mm (13/64")
Depth from top of wall to bottom of casting - 27.45mm (1 5/64")
Weight - 1107gms (39oz)



There are many other differences:

1. The originals have 1467 RH AB or 1466 LH AB cast into the base whilst all the reproductions have 'Made in England' and, on one set, the number '8059'.
2. Originals have grooved inner faces, the repro's are smooth
3. The channel between the inner and outer walls is U shaped on the originals, square shape on the repro's (could be the reason the latter can be problematic to remove)
4. The Jaguar logo is smaller, a different shape and has enlarged 'A' and smaller 'G' and 'U' on the repro's
5. The shoulder between the front face and ear section is much deeper and better defined on the originals giving a more svelte and lighter look
6. The length of the 'Undo' arrow is longer on the original
7. The position of the word 'Undo' is different on the original
8. The lettering for Left/Right side is in a different position on the original

Original:


Reproduction:

Original Jaguar logo:

Once you see the two side by side you realise how ugly the reproduction is compared to the more graceful original. More original examples:



So if you have an original set lying on a shelf get them de-chromed, dressed and re-plated. They also fit a lot better on the hub threads. If in doubt simply compare the spinner logo with that of your oil filler cap - they should be the same!

NB I will add this post to the 'Factory Original' thread in due course.

[PeterCrespin]

When you cast a liquid metal part, the original pattern has to allow for shrinkage on cooling. When you take a mould from an original part you are using the 'cooled' size as a pattern and it common to mess up the final repro product size by over- or under-allowing for shrinkage. Manganese bronze may be easier than aluminium alloy, I haven't checked the CoE.

This is why repro cast parts can appear dimensionally different to originals because it takes work to engineer an identical casting pattern or even forging die to the original, when all you have as reference is the cooled product of the process you're copying.

The only critical or 'precision' dimensions are those of the thread and taper. These probably vary slightly too. You could judge by lying the two spinners onto a horizontal wheel outer taper. The one with the narrower outer diameter where the taper meets the face of the spinner will sit further outboard on the wheel taper. The rest is just aesthetics mostly, although the less unsprung weight the better, of course.

Pete

[Heuer]

I can forgive a slight change in size if this was a project to produce a one off copy but once you start getting into large scale production it can't be beyond the whit of someone to get it right. Modern production techniques mean a product can be scanned and an identical pattern produced - Lionel managed to produce an excellent drawing of the spinner as a hobby. Most unforgivable is screwing up the logo and ancillary text - just as easy to get it right as get it wrong

To quote Orson Equipment Limited who make that spinner: "All Knock Off Spinners are manufactured on site to a drawing or customer sample. Samples are dimensioned and re-created to produce the original shape to customer requirements."

[Heuer]

Just when I thought I knew everything there was to know about spinners these turned up:



Dimensions (originals in brackets):
Height - 38mm (38mm)
Diameter - 101.6mm (101.6mm)
Outer wall thickness - 5.2mm (6.5mm)
Inner wall thickness - 5.0mm (5.4mm)
Depth from top of wall to bottom of casting - 31.9mm (31.6mm)
Weight - 991gms (885gms)

The Jaguar logo is different (better?) although the final R could be improved. The arrow is more stylised and the letters have a line engraved down the centre. Size and shape correctly replicate the original but they are a bit heavier. I have to say they are beautifully made and finished. No manufacturer markings whatsoever but may be the ones SC Parts sell:


If you are going to buy the repro's these are the ones to go for although they are expensive at ?52 each.

[Heuer]

I think I may have worked out who made the spinners for Jaguar - Albion Drop Forgings Co. of Foleshill, Coventry. They were acquired by J Brockhouse & Co in 1961 and merged into the Brockhouse Group as Albion Brockhouse - which is what the AB initials stand for.

Albion Drop Forgings Co
of Foleshill, Coventry. Telephone: Coventry 8091. Telegraphic Address: "Albion, Coventry". (1937)
1900 Company established in Lockhurst Lane.
1914 Specialities: diesinking, stamping and smith's work, engineering motor railway work, iron, steel and brass stamping and drop forgings
1937 Drop forgings manufacturers
1937 Sold by J. Brockhouse and Co
1937 Listed Exhibitor - British Industries Fair. Drop Forgings for the motor, aircraft, railway and general engineering trades, in high grade ferrous and non-ferrous materials. Heat treatment and tests on modern scientific lines. Approved Air Ministry. (Stand No. D.518)
1939 Aircraft Industry Suppliers
1960 Acquired by J. Brockhouse and Co and merged into the Brockhouse Group
1961 Manufacturers of drop forgings for aero, motor and engineering trades. 250 employees
1967 Drop forging was stopped and the work was moved to Brockhouse at West Bromwich

[Heuer]

I have discovered another spinner variant although this is a genuine Jaguar supplied one:


It is the same weight, size and shape as the other Jaguar variant but it has the following cast markings: 8723, 1467, RH, SR as against 1467, RH, AB on the other. The thread side wall appears to be slimmer but the biggest difference is in the logo which is much finer and less bold than the AB produced item. The arrow head engraving also has more of a flourish. I assume the 'SR' stamp refers to the manufacturer although I have not yet found out who they were:


This thread seems to have struck a chord with owners because before I posted it I bought a NOS set of original Jaguar spinners for ?80 off eBay and I was the only bidder. A set of equally nice original spinners just sold for ?155 attracting 15 bids! Still a bargain because to restore a set of originals will mean polishing, re-engraving and chroming which will cost ~?300 (someone I know just had a set done by a guy in Nuneaton and they were stunning). I expect sets of original really good spinners to follow keyfobs, toolkits and jacks in value.

NB: I did take the opportunity at Stoneleigh to ask Orson Equipment, who manufacture one of the reproduction types, as to why their two eared spinners were so wrong whilst their 'Federal' ear-less spinners were totally accurate. Their response was - "they have been like that for the last 18 years and no one else has ever complained" :?

[Heuer]

And yet another variant, this time from MWS Wire Wheels. Easily identified by the logo on the inner surface and the engraving seems faithful to the original:


Unfortunately MWS do not seem to offer KC5262J any more and their current offering is the same as the 'fat' version with the squished logo produced by Orson.