Identification of a 3,8 ots.

[frogeater]

Hello,
I have a close friend who wants to buy an e type ots (I'm not guilty for that :) )
He found a car and will go to visit her, next monday. I try to track the car on xke data but don't succeed: the numbers seems strange...
She has to be a series 1, 3,8 ots, in opalescent blue from 1963. She is supposed to be matching numbers.
Here is a picture of the identification plate
Thank you by advance.
Emmanuel




car 877999
Body:R4624
engine: R7128?9 (could be correct with the "r" prefix for a 3,8 according Peter Crespin' books, we both have)
gearbox:EB58130?

[Heuer]

Firstly the commission plate is genuine - there is a gap between the TEX and ACO that is not there on the repro items (except the new one from Classic Jaguar). The numbers also look OK. I read the engine number as R7128-9 and the gearbox as EB5813JS, '9' meaning it is a high compression engine suggesting it was a non-US export. If you check XKEdata and look at cars either side of 877999 you will see everything is pretty much in sequence (ignoring 877996 which seems to have had an engine swap).

[SEJohnson95]

Firstly the commission plate is genuine - there is a gap between the TEX and ACO that is not there on the repro items

Damn, you beat me to it! First thing I look at on a chassis plate, was one of the first things I remember Richard showing me about a year ago.

[frogeater]

Thank you David for your expertise!
I understand you have fill this: "Also show me cars within ? numbers (only finds cars in same series)" and it seem's effectively sound. I will say him also for the original commission plate.
For the moment, it's enough for me; I will post pictures later, if he allows me to do it.

[frogeater]

Damn, you beat me to it! First thing I look at on a chassis plate, was one of the first things I remember Richard showing me about a year ago.

Thank you for your intervention, SEjohnson95, I follow your story on this forum
PS, I just took my commission plate which is with me in Paris and "ouf", I have also the gap beetween the tex and aco. :) Even if, I changed the engine and the body, I'm involved with originality. :)

[SEJohnson95]

Thanks Emmanuel It's one of those things that bugs me, so easy to get right yet so many people don't. The devil, as they say, is in the detail.

[frogeater]

Hello,
The search of my friend goes on and we will go the next week-end to see a car in germany (which is matching numbers).

This message this time is for me! I will profit of the next week-end to see this car and already sent some pictures of my austin healey to perhaps find an exchange, part exchange, deal.
The car came from california 20 years ago and is registred, from that time in Germany as historical car. ( http://home.mobile.de/OLDTIMERGALERIEDU ... _200181976 )
I'm conscious of the state of the car: she will require a restoration in the future, but I'm more concerned by the identity and possibility to immatriculate the car in France.

First date of registration is november 1965. For the moment I don't have number of the engine, gearbox, but the car look like a 3,8.
The number of identification (writen on a plate on the bulkhead and on a small plate on the "tour eiffel)" is DMV21583CA which is my main problem?????? If I look at the plate on the "tour eiffel"It's seems that the number has been checked by the californina authorities?
What do you think of this number of identification.....
Thank you by advance.

[Heuer]

The lack of a correct commission plate would worry me. The car seems to be a 1964 3.8 yet they say it was first registered in November 1965. Not unheard of but I would want to know why. The DMV21583CA is a Department of Motor Vehicles of California number but perhaps some of our American members can give a view of the relevance and if it is a guarantee of anything. I know Germany has different regulations regarding ID numbers but I don't recall seeing a German registered E-Type without the original commission plate. One for our German members I think.

Could be good bargaining chips if you want to buy providing the car can be registered in France. If you do buy it purchase a stamped up commission plate from Classic Jaguar and get it attached to the car ASAP.

[frogeater]

hello David,
Thank you for your answer. I checked the DMV website of california, but didn't find something.
My aim with that car would be to drive it some years and wait my retirement to began a strong restoration: I saw the car 15 days ago and this option seems possible.

Yes, the view of an USA and German member would be interessant....

[Moeregaard]

The only addition, to my knowledge anyway, that the California DMV used was the plate embossed with the letter "J" followed by the last two digits of the model year. My '66 FHC had the small tag stamped "J66" and nothing else. The plate was brass and riveted to the left of the factory data pate. The only possibility I can come up with regarding the "DMV21583CA" is that the "CA" portion relates to Canada. Anyone else have some thoughts on this?

[Heuer]

No, definitely California unless Canada is the latest State to join the Union :

[frogeater]

Thank you for your message Moeregaard. On the plate, like David show it's written "stat eof California".
I have this picture also (but I don't find on it something useful): it's a copy of the german "vc5"

[Heuer]

This is the ID plate for what it is worth:


Suggest you email the vendor and ask for some high resolution photos and any information he has on engine number etc. Can't believe in this day and age someone will try and sell a 67,000 Euro car with pictures taken with an old camera phone at 360x480 pixels unless they are hiding something. Some people's Forum avatars are bigger than that! :?

[PeterCrespin]

If it is registered in Germany and has been for twenty years, won't the transfer be within EU countries? Why go back to the Department of Motor Vehicles system from 50 years ago? Oh, wait, I just remembered -

...it's France! :-)

As for original data plates, AFAIK there is only one criterion nobody has ever replicated and it's the only thing I look for - photo etching. If the letters are not raised above the black background it's fake. Whether it's a correctly typeset fake or bad fake seems immaterial when confronted with that shiny ersatz screenprint smoothness. I suspect most registration authorities would also rather see an old fake than a shiny new one just to correct the word Texaco. They are interested in provenance not concours.

Pete

[Moeregaard]

No, definitely California unless Canada is the latest State to join the Union :

OK--I have seen that tag. That's the one the DMV uses for "Special Construction" vehicles, i.e., kit cars, homebuilt trailers, etc. I'll go out on a limb here and say that this car may have been built up from the remains of one or more vehicles that had been totaled, or stolen and stripped. In California, once a car has been written off by the insurance company the common recourse for anyone wanting to get it back on the road is to apply for a salvage title. I built a boat trailer a few years ago and the DMV applied an identical tag, with the words "Special Construction" listed in the manufacturer's box on the title.

As for Canada becoming the 51st state, we'd love to have them. The people are nice and the beer is better :D

[frogeater]

This is a picture of the id plate:

Taken from this picture:

David, I wouldn't blam the quality of the seller as a photograph because I was worst than him in taking two pictures of the plate:




Peter, I won't be a good barrister to defend the French Administration
:)

Moeregaard,
What you said is extremly important for me. I mean you are sure of that information living in California?
That means it would be preferable to give up that car???? (and perhaps finish my fhc quickly before to make a stupid thing?)

[Moeregaard]

I wouldn't necessarily give up on this car, but since its documentation history seems questionable, I would do a lot of research to ensure that it's not on some motor-vehicle department's theft list. Here in the U.S., a gentleman was recently reunited with his '68 OTS that had gone missing over 40 years earlier. I would like to say that every E-Type that finds its way back to the UK and Europe has a clean title, but I'm sure this is not the case.

[ralphr1780]

Quite suspicious...even more than an OTS with a FHC id. The original color was black and it had been repainted green? No doubt that this questionable situation is guiding the price asked for. I wouldn't feel comfortable. But that's personal!

[Moeregaard]

On this side of the pond, we're hearing more stories about stolen cars going over to Europe. The '68 OTS I mentioned was found in a container full of cars bound for Holland. Those of you buying up the "barn finds" need to do your homework. If the title is missing, it's worth spending some time at the DMV or local police station to see if the car is on the national registry of stolen vehicles. With something like 60,000 vehicles stolen annually in Los Angeles alone, the police don't spend much time looking for them and once the insurance company pays off the vehicle is pretty much forgotten.

[gsv]

The lack of a correct commission plate would worry me. The car seems to be a 1964 3.8 yet they say it was first registered in November 1965. Not unheard of but I would want to know why. It appears the registration says 1-11-65. In the USA, that is January 11, 1965. -9 Compression head 3.8s were also exported to USA. My 2 cents.