Looking for advice from members who perhaps already have the same combination in their cars.
I am currently restoring a series 3 that was originally an auto.
I have sourced an Etype 4-speed box (with v12 bellhousing)and a Getrag 265 5 speed from an XJS
I have the original 3.31 diff and have also sourced a 2.88 diff.
I was aiming to fit the getrag with the 2.88 diff and wondered if anyone else had this combination and could report on its driveability.
Never really intended to end up with 2 gearboxes and diffs but I am turning into a bit of an e type magpie I suppose.
Any comments, advice as to the best permutation would be most welcome.
I am aware that the 4 speed box would be a straight swap and that the getrag will need a bit of work (i.e. propshaft and gearbox mount mods).
but I have the adapter plate for the getrag, and the rest of the work doesn't phase me.
Gearbox diff combination for Auto conversion
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PeterCrespin
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#2
The 2.88 and 4-speed would be my pick. Straight drop-in and no bodywork stuff needed. Same mount, same propshaft. I assume it is the gearbox with the long tail housing and two bosses on the right side for mounting the clutch slave? It probably has the XJ/XJ-S top cover with the gear lever pivot set back about 2 inches but that is usable when converting an auto because it brings the stick out where the auto selector currently sits.
You could even leave your 3.31 diff if it's still in the car and not leaking or slack. It will let you accelerate quicker but burn a little more fuel at motorway speeds. Depends what type of driving you mean to do.
The Getrag will be significant trouble to fit if it's a Jaguar Getrag. These were all very long and will need transmission mount fabrication and gearbix or bodywork modification in the tunnel and crossmember, plus a custom propshaft etc. You also need to sort out a hydraulic release bearing because there's no provision for mounting a slave cylinder and you'd need an adapter to fit the Getrag box to your V12 bell.
The 4-speed with 2.88 gives the same top gear revs as a Getrag plus 3.54 so there's not much in it for cruising. I would tend to avoid the Getrag and 2.88 as that gives rather weak performance in top although the Getrag first gear does suit a taller diff as it is too low otherwise.
Make life easy, use all the standard parts and preserve the car's value by using the 4-speed and then just choose the diff that suits your driving style - lots of acceleration or relaxed long motorway cruises.
Pete
You could even leave your 3.31 diff if it's still in the car and not leaking or slack. It will let you accelerate quicker but burn a little more fuel at motorway speeds. Depends what type of driving you mean to do.
The Getrag will be significant trouble to fit if it's a Jaguar Getrag. These were all very long and will need transmission mount fabrication and gearbix or bodywork modification in the tunnel and crossmember, plus a custom propshaft etc. You also need to sort out a hydraulic release bearing because there's no provision for mounting a slave cylinder and you'd need an adapter to fit the Getrag box to your V12 bell.
The 4-speed with 2.88 gives the same top gear revs as a Getrag plus 3.54 so there's not much in it for cruising. I would tend to avoid the Getrag and 2.88 as that gives rather weak performance in top although the Getrag first gear does suit a taller diff as it is too low otherwise.
Make life easy, use all the standard parts and preserve the car's value by using the 4-speed and then just choose the diff that suits your driving style - lots of acceleration or relaxed long motorway cruises.
Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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#3
Thanks for the post Pete. I should have qualified my previous post by adding that I have gone a certain way down the Getrag route before I was offered the 4 speed box.
I have an adapter ring fitted and with a slight relieving of the Getrag bell housing for access to fit the starter motor ( and have access to the bolts)it all fitted together pretty well.
I just need to fabricate a sheet metal guard to cover this
I have taken a couple of photos so that you can see what Getrag box I have.....You have got me wondering about the slave cylinder now.
The box that I have fitted has provision for the slave which I assumed would be fine and the speedo output (that's why I bought it).
I am aware of the propshaft & gearbox mounting issue but I have a prop that I can modify and am happy to fabricate the gearbox mount.
when I put the 4 speed next to the Getrag there seems to be little difference in o/a length.
Gear lever position is different taken but to be honest I was intending to fit the engine and box and determine its position when it is in the car.
The Getrag has also had new seals and been checked out by a gearbox company and declared to be in excellent order so just wondered if it was worth the hassle to revert to the 4 speed.
Any further comments and wisdom would be much appreciated
I should add that I plan to use the car as a weekend driver primarily.... but I have a wedding invite in Zurich in 2016 and quite fancied going over there in it.
.
I have an adapter ring fitted and with a slight relieving of the Getrag bell housing for access to fit the starter motor ( and have access to the bolts)it all fitted together pretty well.
I just need to fabricate a sheet metal guard to cover this
I have taken a couple of photos so that you can see what Getrag box I have.....You have got me wondering about the slave cylinder now.
The box that I have fitted has provision for the slave which I assumed would be fine and the speedo output (that's why I bought it).
I am aware of the propshaft & gearbox mounting issue but I have a prop that I can modify and am happy to fabricate the gearbox mount.
when I put the 4 speed next to the Getrag there seems to be little difference in o/a length.
Gear lever position is different taken but to be honest I was intending to fit the engine and box and determine its position when it is in the car.
The Getrag has also had new seals and been checked out by a gearbox company and declared to be in excellent order so just wondered if it was worth the hassle to revert to the 4 speed.
Any further comments and wisdom would be much appreciated
I should add that I plan to use the car as a weekend driver primarily.... but I have a wedding invite in Zurich in 2016 and quite fancied going over there in it.
.
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#4
Hi,
Some Pictures of my V12 Getrag conversion here:
viewtopic.php?t=1472&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10
More here:
viewtopic.php?t=6348&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10
These show my own conversion and outline some of the problems with a V12 Auto to Manual Getrag conversion, which I achieved successfully without a kit and with the gear lever output in the correct location. You need a new prop shaft with a spline drive front end, no central flexible joint and you will have to measure it as all conversions have slightly different results. This means a trial installation of engine/IRS followed by measurement, then removal of either engine or IRS to install the new shaft. You appear to have just as much as I did to begin the conversion, although I was lucky enough to find a rear mount adaptor from SNGB. To be honest, making your own would not be too difficult if you can weld heavy gauge steel and might even give a better result as mine ended close to the cross member and had to be modified slightly.
Despite the fact that most say otherwise, I did not have to make any conversion to the bodywork of my Series 3 2+2 auto car whatsoever to get the box in place (except the removable tunnel cover, which needed a hole and clearance for the gear linkage). Things are a little close at the rear and I did have to be careful with the mount I used. I found an off the shelf item (SNGB) but had to shorten it slightly, very easy to do. You can see the mount in one of the pictures ? this was before I cut off the rear inch or so of length to clear the cross member. The Standard manual spring, bolt and rubbers seem to work well with the standard gearbox mounting plate.
In answer to the question about the Getrag and a 2.88, it?s difficult to say. I have the 3.07 (I think ? I never measured it or checked up, but I believe I have the original UK spec diff for an auto car ? the experts will fill in the details if I am wrong I am sure!). Performance is great. I can drive the car in fifth from around 20 km/h with no issues, Sure it doesn?t pick up like a sports car in that configuration, but if I want to, I just change down. You will get better economy and quieter running with a 2.88, no bad thing if you need to do long motorway miles to get places. Many would say why treat an E-type like that, but the Series 3 is more of a tourer than a sports car and it will be good for touring Europe for example. As Pete says, 1st gear is very low, rather superfluous with my diff, so one could argue that I almost have a 4 speed car as I don?t need 1st. I sit at 60km/h in fifth around town, with no trouble when I am just taking it easy or in traffic. I find the car perfectly flexible in that regard. You might find you have to stay in 4th for flexibility and quick pick up, but then that?s exactly where you will be with a 4 speed anyway. Value is subjective, 5 speeds seem to increase rather than decrease value to most in my experience, although some will disagree. Question is, are you intending to sell on completion, if not, then don?t worry, you can always hang on to the 4 speed and convert back later to sell, or just sell it now and invest the money in tyres/petrol/running costs ? I think the 4 speed will fetch more than the Getrag if you sell it separately, but that depends on the buyer. Of course, if you find you have to modify the gearbox tunnel and cross member for your conversion then values might be affected. I stress once again that my conversion fits with NO tunnel or cross member cutting or conversion and the only metalwork was to convert the auto gearbox cover to go over the linkage. You will need a new cover anyway for a manual of any description and the tunnel cover fits with screws and can be swapped back. If you are really precious about it, you could make a new cover complete and retain the original cover. I guess you will be able to find a spare cover anyway, as others have also converted in the past and will now be using manual type covers.
Hope this helps.
Simon
Some Pictures of my V12 Getrag conversion here:
viewtopic.php?t=1472&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10
More here:
viewtopic.php?t=6348&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10
These show my own conversion and outline some of the problems with a V12 Auto to Manual Getrag conversion, which I achieved successfully without a kit and with the gear lever output in the correct location. You need a new prop shaft with a spline drive front end, no central flexible joint and you will have to measure it as all conversions have slightly different results. This means a trial installation of engine/IRS followed by measurement, then removal of either engine or IRS to install the new shaft. You appear to have just as much as I did to begin the conversion, although I was lucky enough to find a rear mount adaptor from SNGB. To be honest, making your own would not be too difficult if you can weld heavy gauge steel and might even give a better result as mine ended close to the cross member and had to be modified slightly.
Despite the fact that most say otherwise, I did not have to make any conversion to the bodywork of my Series 3 2+2 auto car whatsoever to get the box in place (except the removable tunnel cover, which needed a hole and clearance for the gear linkage). Things are a little close at the rear and I did have to be careful with the mount I used. I found an off the shelf item (SNGB) but had to shorten it slightly, very easy to do. You can see the mount in one of the pictures ? this was before I cut off the rear inch or so of length to clear the cross member. The Standard manual spring, bolt and rubbers seem to work well with the standard gearbox mounting plate.
In answer to the question about the Getrag and a 2.88, it?s difficult to say. I have the 3.07 (I think ? I never measured it or checked up, but I believe I have the original UK spec diff for an auto car ? the experts will fill in the details if I am wrong I am sure!). Performance is great. I can drive the car in fifth from around 20 km/h with no issues, Sure it doesn?t pick up like a sports car in that configuration, but if I want to, I just change down. You will get better economy and quieter running with a 2.88, no bad thing if you need to do long motorway miles to get places. Many would say why treat an E-type like that, but the Series 3 is more of a tourer than a sports car and it will be good for touring Europe for example. As Pete says, 1st gear is very low, rather superfluous with my diff, so one could argue that I almost have a 4 speed car as I don?t need 1st. I sit at 60km/h in fifth around town, with no trouble when I am just taking it easy or in traffic. I find the car perfectly flexible in that regard. You might find you have to stay in 4th for flexibility and quick pick up, but then that?s exactly where you will be with a 4 speed anyway. Value is subjective, 5 speeds seem to increase rather than decrease value to most in my experience, although some will disagree. Question is, are you intending to sell on completion, if not, then don?t worry, you can always hang on to the 4 speed and convert back later to sell, or just sell it now and invest the money in tyres/petrol/running costs ? I think the 4 speed will fetch more than the Getrag if you sell it separately, but that depends on the buyer. Of course, if you find you have to modify the gearbox tunnel and cross member for your conversion then values might be affected. I stress once again that my conversion fits with NO tunnel or cross member cutting or conversion and the only metalwork was to convert the auto gearbox cover to go over the linkage. You will need a new cover anyway for a manual of any description and the tunnel cover fits with screws and can be swapped back. If you are really precious about it, you could make a new cover complete and retain the original cover. I guess you will be able to find a spare cover anyway, as others have also converted in the past and will now be using manual type covers.
Hope this helps.
Simon
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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#5
Thanks for the info Simon much appreciated. I will trial fit the engine and gearbox before making final choice.
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PeterCrespin
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#6
Are you sure that Getrag is from an XJ-S? The word Jaguar (and the Leaper logo I think?) should be cast into the casing but I don't see it. I might be thinking of the 290 there actually. I fully accept the main body change for that style of Getrag is the top trans tunnel and I had no trouble using a Getrag in a short wheelbase car with some relieving of the cross member because that one had a flange output.
The XJ/XJ-S Jaguar Getrags I've had all used a large offset round mount cantilevered via a webbed casting off the left side of the tail housing. This is the bugger to mount in an E. The two slotted lugs on yours aren't so bad as you can just use a couple of early 3.8 Moss-style rubber bobbins sitting on a bracket bolted either side of the tunnel with reinforcement.
The slave cylinder comment was because I thought you were fitting a Getrag to a V12 bell. Given you have used the Getrag bell, release arm and slave you will obviously be fine with a Getrag release bearing too, provided it presses on the correct diaphragm clutch without the carbon release bearing rubbing face.
Hope you test the starter engagement and release several time before fitting the lot into the car.
Pete
The XJ/XJ-S Jaguar Getrags I've had all used a large offset round mount cantilevered via a webbed casting off the left side of the tail housing. This is the bugger to mount in an E. The two slotted lugs on yours aren't so bad as you can just use a couple of early 3.8 Moss-style rubber bobbins sitting on a bracket bolted either side of the tunnel with reinforcement.
The slave cylinder comment was because I thought you were fitting a Getrag to a V12 bell. Given you have used the Getrag bell, release arm and slave you will obviously be fine with a Getrag release bearing too, provided it presses on the correct diaphragm clutch without the carbon release bearing rubbing face.
Hope you test the starter engagement and release several time before fitting the lot into the car.
Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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#7
Livlli
Have you checked the Ratio's on the Getrag ? , to do this put a tipex mark on the input and output shafts , select the gear and count the input shaft revolutions to 1 rev of the output shaft .
What's the gate pattern ? if it's a dog leg they are all 1-1 5th gear , in an e-type 1st gear ratio is also important which is usually too high in a Getrag , the wrong choice can spoil the car .
Have you checked the Ratio's on the Getrag ? , to do this put a tipex mark on the input and output shafts , select the gear and count the input shaft revolutions to 1 rev of the output shaft .
What's the gate pattern ? if it's a dog leg they are all 1-1 5th gear , in an e-type 1st gear ratio is also important which is usually too high in a Getrag , the wrong choice can spoil the car .
Steve3.8
64 3.8 fhc, 67 4.2 fhc
64 3.8 fhc, 67 4.2 fhc
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#8
Really appreciate all the input.
I based the selection of the Getrag on nothing better than web research tbh.
I haven't checked the ratios but was led to believe that they are the following from an article that I read on the JEC website
I bought the gearbox from a guy who told me that it came from a early 3.6 xjs that had 80.000 on the clock,he had also driven the car and the gearbox was sound. (this has been backed up by the company that examined the box)
The original idea to mate this with the 2.88 diff was to produce a more refined and driveable touring car. To be honest I have no desire to spoil the car but as it will be a 'keeper' so to speak I thought that what I was doing would be an improvement on the BW 3 speed auto.
This conversion utilizes the starter ring from the original auto sandwiched by a new flywheel so I don't anticipate any problems with the starter as it worked fine before and shows no sign of wear on the teeth.
I am trying (by posting such threads) to improve my limited knowledge and if I make mistakes then so be it....just trying not to reinvent the wheel so to speak.
Hopefully someone else reading these posts will learn something as well which is what I seem to be doing most nights :-)
I based the selection of the Getrag on nothing better than web research tbh.
I haven't checked the ratios but was led to believe that they are the following from an article that I read on the JEC website
I bought the gearbox from a guy who told me that it came from a early 3.6 xjs that had 80.000 on the clock,he had also driven the car and the gearbox was sound. (this has been backed up by the company that examined the box)
The original idea to mate this with the 2.88 diff was to produce a more refined and driveable touring car. To be honest I have no desire to spoil the car but as it will be a 'keeper' so to speak I thought that what I was doing would be an improvement on the BW 3 speed auto.
This conversion utilizes the starter ring from the original auto sandwiched by a new flywheel so I don't anticipate any problems with the starter as it worked fine before and shows no sign of wear on the teeth.
I am trying (by posting such threads) to improve my limited knowledge and if I make mistakes then so be it....just trying not to reinvent the wheel so to speak.
Hopefully someone else reading these posts will learn something as well which is what I seem to be doing most nights :-)
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PeterCrespin
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#9
All sounds reasonable. I recall you said the box had a speedo drive and I think my last one like that. You should be fine, but 2.88 plus a 0.76 top is pretty much at the extreme end of the gearing spectrum.
Not impossible, but unusually tall, even for an easy-cruising setup. If you think you're going to love trickling along at low revs for mile after mile at speed you'll probably like it (and bottom gear will be nice except on hilly hairpin bends or traffic jam city traffic). The V12 can drag that gear along but you won't find a similar factory setup and 5-speed sellers don't generally like it.
If you want a more general-purpose driving experience and don't live somewhere that has 90-100 mph cruising as a serious possibility. you might choose a more conventional setup like your alternative diff with the Getrag.
Either way, a manual V12 is a wonderful experience.
Pete
Not impossible, but unusually tall, even for an easy-cruising setup. If you think you're going to love trickling along at low revs for mile after mile at speed you'll probably like it (and bottom gear will be nice except on hilly hairpin bends or traffic jam city traffic). The V12 can drag that gear along but you won't find a similar factory setup and 5-speed sellers don't generally like it.
If you want a more general-purpose driving experience and don't live somewhere that has 90-100 mph cruising as a serious possibility. you might choose a more conventional setup like your alternative diff with the Getrag.
Either way, a manual V12 is a wonderful experience.
Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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#10
Hi
I have the Getrag 2.88 combination in my car.
It makes a nice relaxed cruiser as others have stated. At 60 mph it pulls around 2000revs, overtaking is best done in 4th, around town is nice in 3rd or 4 Th.
If you are not a boy racer you'll love it.
I have the Getrag 2.88 combination in my car.
It makes a nice relaxed cruiser as others have stated. At 60 mph it pulls around 2000revs, overtaking is best done in 4th, around town is nice in 3rd or 4 Th.
If you are not a boy racer you'll love it.
Mark Brown
1971 S3 Etype, now sold, sadly.
1971 S3 Etype, now sold, sadly.
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#11
Hi
I have the Getrag plus 2.88 combination in my car.
It makes a nice relaxed cruiser as Mark has stated. At 60 mph it pulls around 1840 revs, overtaking is best done in 4th, around town is nice in 3rd or 4th.
I am driving a lot on german Autobahns and I prefere the 2,88er more than the 3,31 I had before. Since 2011 I have a 6,0 L motor from a 93er limousine in my EV12 and for me the combination Getrag + 2,88 is perfect.
If you are a boy racer you can chose a lower gear.
Regards Wolfgang Gatza
I have the Getrag plus 2.88 combination in my car.
It makes a nice relaxed cruiser as Mark has stated. At 60 mph it pulls around 1840 revs, overtaking is best done in 4th, around town is nice in 3rd or 4th.
I am driving a lot on german Autobahns and I prefere the 2,88er more than the 3,31 I had before. Since 2011 I have a 6,0 L motor from a 93er limousine in my EV12 and for me the combination Getrag + 2,88 is perfect.
If you are a boy racer you can chose a lower gear.
Regards Wolfgang Gatza
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PeterCrespin
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#12
It's not so much a case of being a boy racer as liking the feel of the torque.
The percentage change in diff ratio is the same as the percentage change in torque. A lot of people would spend thousands to get 20% more torque across the range but gearing can accomplish the same thing (or lose the same amount) depending on priorities. Jeder hat Seine Geschmack.
The percentage change in diff ratio is the same as the percentage change in torque. A lot of people would spend thousands to get 20% more torque across the range but gearing can accomplish the same thing (or lose the same amount) depending on priorities. Jeder hat Seine Geschmack.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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#13
For those who talk about Getrag, it could be great to precise if it is a /5 or /6.
Simon, based on your pictures yours is a 265/6. This means that the 5th is an overdrive gear with 0.81.
The sport version of this gearbox ha a ratio = 1 for the 5th.
You use what ?
Michel
Simon, based on your pictures yours is a 265/6. This means that the 5th is an overdrive gear with 0.81.
The sport version of this gearbox ha a ratio = 1 for the 5th.
You use what ?
Michel
Le chemin sera long!...
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#14
I am using the "long" version with 5th = 0,81:1
Regards Wolfgang Gatza
Regards Wolfgang Gatza
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