Timing Chain Tensioner - nightmare

[david0078]

I have a US spec late 69 2+2 E type

I have rattle, noisy shitty sound from the front of the engine. I disconnected , water pump, alternator etc and noise remained.
My thoughts was to check the timing chain and tensioner.
I seriously underestimated how difficult it is to get to this. I have done this much so far.
Removed bonnet
Removed rad
Removed hoses
Remover alternator
Removed Water pump
Started to remove the oil sump but its catching on the torsion bar

Removed all bolts holding the timing cover

Removed the two studs from cover to head
Removed the four studs from the cover to sump

I am thinking that nothing else is holding the cover other that the head pressing down on it, Is it possible to remove the cover with the head in place??? I will be mortified if I have to remove the head, im not an engine man and I never removed a head before.
When doing the above I noticed that the big crankshaft bolt holding the damper in place was only finger tight and the crankshaft damper cone had snapped in four pieces. Could this be the cause of my shitty noise?
Can anyone offer me some advice, I thought this would take a day to sort and four weekends later Im still at it, swearing and cursing.

Any advice would be so welcomed
David

[abowie]

If you want to get the timing cover off you will probably have to take the head off. The head gasket is sandwiched between the top of the timing cover and the head, around the timing chains. Sometimes you can get lucky but usually on an older engine you probably will wreck the gasket section. I suppose you could bodge some sort of gasket up to seal this section as it only really seals oil but that wouldn't be optimal IMO.

What I would do is fix your loose harmonic balancer by replacing the cone, tightening the nut down properly and then lock it in place with the correct lock tab. I would then put back everything you have taken off the engine.

If you have timing chain noise it may well be the top chain. This is common. This chain has an adjuster situated behind the breather housing. Adjustment is pretty simple. See the manual. Make sure you DO NOT completely undo the lock nut and then drop it into the sump... The lock nut is also whitworth :-)

Then see if with those 2 fixes the noise has gone away.

If not then you're going to have to pull the head, drop the sump etc.

The bottom chain tensioner is hydraulic and is not adjustable.

[jag68]

Hi David
Practically speaking you can't get the front cover off with out at least loosening the head nuts (including the four underneath the front) and lifting the head up a VERY small amount. The reason is that the cover is located on the block by dowels and is very tight against the head and the gasket. It has to be pulled straight off and installed straight on because of this and you simply can't do it without destroying the head gasket if the head is fully locked down. You MAY be able to re-torque the head back without replacing the head gasket - you may get away with it.

A loose lower timing chain usually manifests itself by a low knocking sound at idle, getting worse as you lower the rpm. It doesn't sound like that's what you've got. If it's a chain problem it sounds more like a loose top chain, which often manifests itself by a rattle on an over run - rev the engine and you'll hear it as the engine rpm suddenly drops. These things don't usually come on on the sudden - that is they tend to come on gradually. You can try and tighten the top chain - it's a simple procedure outlined in the manual.

Was the damper so loose that you could rattle it on the crank nose before you removed it? That could be the problem. I'd recommend you start it with the damper off and now listen, but you'd have to put the sump on and put some oil in it - maybe 4 quarts. You don't need the rad hooked up or the alternator on if you only run it for a few SECONDS. Is the rubber in the damper ok - that can also cause a noise.

Terry Sturgeon

[David Oslo]

I had a similar sounding rattle noise, and investigated if I could easily change the chains and tensioners and support plates in situ, but I ended up pulling the engine, not too bad a job really.

The front of the timing cover has two vertically pointing studs that the cylinder head locates over. These studs when located throught the head prevent the front timing cover from moving forward at all. Hence they prevent the front timing cover from getting free from the locating dowels.

To explain it another way, the head interlocks the front timing cover in the fore-aft direction. To get the timing cover free of it's dowels, the head needs to come off, alternatively the studs need to be removed from the timing cover with head still in situ. In addition you have the previously mentioned hassle / risks with the head gasket.

My rattle ended up being timing chain guide plates (the rubber coated things) being rock hard, basically hard as bakelite, not offering any damping at all. Chains were nice and tight (low mileage) but I replaced the hydraulic tensioner as a matter of course.

[david0078]

Thankyou Guys, you have all really helped me.
The reason that I was so keen to get in the timing chain area was that the noise was directly linked to the RPM, is had that scraping essence to it.
My first thought was always the water pump, I was convinced it was going to be that or possibly alternator bearings.
After ruling them out the next obvious place for that sort of noise was the timing chains.
Ive not started the engine for a month or two now so Im a little fuzzy on why I started down this road. I have no idea if the noise comes from the top or bottom chains. I have looked at parts drawings and It was the chain tensioners that I was keen to inspect as I could relate the noise to a chain scraping over a hard surface like a damper or a tensioner. I looked at picture of dampers and tensioners and imagine that the mating surface must wear down eventually and then you would have a metal to metal situation.
I have tried to use a boroscope? the tiny cameras like what they shove up your bottom when your prostate is being checked. I tried to drop it down the engine breather to see if I can see the dampers and tensioner but I didn't much luck as space is very limited, I did however see the top chain and it looked in decent condition and well lubricated.
Now that I have had chance to ponder on the situation for a few hours, Im think about the challenge of removing and refitting the head, as I said I have never done it before but I do enjoy a challenge and the extra knowledge such a job brings. I would be interested in your thoughts guys. I really really don't want to lift the engine as I have very limited space and Ive already taken over the dining room with various front end bits including the bonnet which is safe and happy on a home made stand.
I purchased the car from California and its as straight as a die, there isn't a flake of rust on it and runs well apart from this noise. I purchased the car to sell on once ive had a little fun it in. Im not keeping it long term but I would never sell a car with known issues.
The rubber on the crankshaft balancer is a little cracked on worn, the wear is more pronounced on one quarter that the other three. The crankshaft bolt was only finger tight and the cone in place but all snapped up, I wasn't expecting this and the damper was removed before I thought to see if had excessive play in it.
Also before you go can anyone help me sourcing the following bits, as mentioned my car is
Etype S2 2+2 AUTO
Beige leather interior (original)
US Spec
Converted to RHD by me

I need
Sunvisors and brackets to suit
RH Door Mirror to match the original LH one as it was a LHD car
Boot boards
Vinyl / Leather to cover above (correct colour)
Luggage rails and rubber for above
Spare wheel clamp
Head rests

THanks Guys, hope your enjoying the weekend.
Boot boards,

[David Oslo]

Both the upper and lower chains run past / are supported by chain guides. Said guides are faced with a rubber pad, and said rubber pad hardens over time & oil & heat exposure. My guides ('67) were rock hard. Made a "chinging" noise when you tap them with metal. The new ones are soft, and fingernail indentable, and make no noise when tapped with metal.

So changing the guides to new soft rubber will dampen the noise. Also making sure the upper chain is correctly tensioned (using the manual eccentric adjuster under the oil breather) is important. And given you're up to your knees in it anyway I would change the hydraulic tensioner as a matter of course. Depending on the condition of you chains (measure pin to pin spacing over say a 10" stretch of chain) you may or may not wish to change them too.

Pulling the head is straight forward. You will have to remoce the exhaust manifold (and risk broken studs) and the inlet manifold (complete with carbs), a bit of pain to get to the lower rearmost nuts. The head itself may however be stuck on one or more of the head studs. Which then entails careful use of two hydraulic jacks to prize it upwards. It's heavy enough when loose to justify either a simply rope hoist / block & tackle, or elefant arm if you can borrow one. A day's work, which could run over to take two days.

Benefits are that you can decoke the pistons, combustion chambers and valves.

In terms of noises, it's quite likely that some of your valve timings may be out of tolerance, giving a tappety noise, which also varies with revolutions. With the head off, and on the bench (or kitchen table) you also have excellent access to check the cam to bucket follower clearances. And then even easier to pull the cams and change the shims. Everything done on a bench is easier that bent double over an engine bay.

[christopher storey]

It is not necessary to remove either inlet or exhaust manifolds to take the head off. In fact, it makes life quite a lot easier to leave them on, as you can then exert a bit of side to side leverage to free the head from the studs, and if you want to sling the head with an engine crane it gives you much better and secure lifting points

[David Oslo]

Good point, I was a blinded by the fact that I was taking the manifolds off anyhow to strip & refurb carbs, polish and paint, change gaskets etc. Oh, and also to make the engine slim enough to drop it out vertically.

[rfs1957]

Can't help feeling that this reminds me of an employee who used to love ripping things apart at the slightest "sound" of trouble, instead of standing back and considering who was going to pay all his hours of - potentially - unnecessary labour !
A loose crank damper will make a hell of a racket, would't it indeed be a better idea (as suggested by our Antipodean cousin) to sort the crank damper out before embarking on what may well turn out to be a completely unnecessary dockyard job with all it's probable complications ?

[David Oslo]

Aha, see the dilemma. My hours are free, and the pleasure is in the dismantling and rebuilding. Depends on how you look at things, glass half full and all that. :D

[david0078]

Hey Folks

Thankyou so much for all your advice, I cannot tell you how helpful it was. I removed the cylinder head and eventually got the timing cover off, even with the head off and all bolts removed it still needed some effort to finally get it off.
On inspection I found what I was expecting, worn chain guides and rock hard rubber mating surfices that was more like bakerlight as described by David Oslo.
I have ordered all the bits I need to renew.

Thanks again