Yet another brake bottle

[tim wood]

So I go to the garage and there it is on the floor, a small pool of liquid.
Where has that come from I say. Quick taste shows its brake fluid. ( I know it's stupid). Feel around and the characteristic weep from the base of the bottle. Take it off and the crack around the spigot is clear.

Now this bottle isn't very old and isn't the first time I've had to replace it. I take care to refit the filter and spigot.

Still it's just another ?25 lining the pockets of parts suppliers.

How long will this one last I think?

Apologies to all Rant over.

Tim

[Heuer]

What amazes me is that despite owning Sovy and having access to original drawings SNGB aren't able to come up with something that is at least the equal of the originals or better. The 3.8 round bottles are a different size and weight:

Repro diameter: 60mm
Original diameter: 64mm
Repro weight: 35gms
Original weight: 45gms

The repro bottle will not accept an original clutch cap as the thread is wrong. The reduced diameter means it is impossible to retain the bottles firmly in the retaining bracket no matter how you tighten the bolt. The repro does not have the words 'Fluid Level' in relief on either side. The repro does not have a filter element. :?

[265bhp]

Maybe a challenge for Marek...his indicator lenses are absolutely spot on....

[MarekH]

Someone would have to send me some samples to look at - I obviously can't buy a new one because they are the wrong shape and I'd learn nothing useful from it.

kind regards
Marek

[Heuer]

I have two round 3.8 originals if you need them.

[MarekH]

Dear David,

Pop them in the post for early August - I won't have any time to look at it before then.

kind regards
Marek

[265bhp]

Hi Marek

I have an original square clutch and square brake bottle from my early 63 car which I would also like you to have a look at as I bought a new set of 3 and am not happy with them either.....
Although the overall dimensions of the reproduction rectangular bottle looks about right, the corners are too soft a radius, the font is not provided on the front face nor is a moulded rib line, the vertical mould joint line is too visible, the font is the wrong proportion and the lower outlet nozzle is not the right shape...whilst the brake tops are the right thread size the clutch is too big such that an original cap won't screw on......apart from that they are perfect...ha, ha

I'll drop them round in early August some time if that's OK

It would also be better to have the metal insert made of stainless please, as I believe the SNG ones are plated mild steel

Regards
Jonathan

[pmansson]

I also collect the BMW coupes from the early 70s and must say it is embarrassing (for Jaguar and England) just what a difference there is when it comes to parts both back then and now. Yes it did rust for construction reasons of esp the front wings, and lack of good protection but so did Jaguar.
Anyway, the combined brake and clutch bottles on the BMWs have lasted since new. So have their black plastic caps with el level warning contacts. I have replaced them on some of the cars, only to have a white bottle rather than yellowish from age and 45 years of oily smears.
Perhaps I should ask the main parts supplier for the maker, but why hasn?t SNGB done this a long time ago. This topic comes up with regular intervals and is a total joke. My XKs have black metal bottles where the paint on the lid and top of the bottle peels off after about a year, surprise surprise....Just as embarrassing, but very explainable. The E-type plastic bottles story is inexplicable for laymen but must be due to poor engineering of the construction process or raw material.....(a bit like the petrol hoses around the fuel filter container which seems to be a similar problem judging by this forum. Never a problem on the BMWs!! In fact the newly made parts for the BMWs are 100% when it comes to quality which is certainly not the case with the Jaguars (where the seal around the front quarter lights/vent windows on the Mk10 must be on top of my "shit list" when it comes to new parts.
Peder

[Heuer]

As yet I can find no evidence to suggest Sovy made the plastic bottles which could be the reason SNGB are unable to supply pattern copies with the correct printing and size. SOVY (U.K.) Ltd 54 Park Lane. Croydon, Surrey filed the Patent for the Sovy 'Liquid Level Indicator' on 24th October 1959, revised on 9th May 1961 by Eric Bernard Aird Marsh and granted on 10th April 1963. Sovy also produced a range of other electrical items. SNG Barratt purchased SOVY U.K. in 1990. Question is - where did Jaguar source the plastic reservoirs from?

[Heuer]

Just received a new 3.8 round reservoir bottle from SNGB to replace the original on my car which I was intending to send it to Marek so he could look at making exact copies. To my surprise the current repro bottles are the same size and have the same thread as the originals. They also include the 'Fill Level' text and a metal support tube in the nipple. No filter but that was only included originally because the cork floats deteriorated which the modern ones do not.

So the latest SNGB production seems to address all my concerns and it only remains for me to fit and make sure it does not leak. Can't comment on the later repro square bottles as I have not seen them.

[265bhp]

Good news David
I'll drop one square one off at Mareks and also take one to Beaulieu and try and have a chat with SNG then
Jonathan

[MarekH]

I had a look at some square bottles today and it looks like there will be four different types: -2 clutch bottles and two brake bottles. The main difference appears to be degree of rounding of the squared off corners top and bottom.

The earlier type had a gauze "sock" filter insert and pipe going down into the bottom and the later more rounded corner type had a "paint gun" type of cartridge filter which press fitted into the bottom pipe.

All of the newer reproductions I saw looked substantially different with either missing "FLUID LEVEL" text or used a different font and had a different method of construction with alternative filterless inserts (drilled off-centre after molding) plugging into the bottom pipe. They also had a subtly different thread pitch which explains why you can't interchange clutch and brake bottle lids with their previous companions.

If anyone has NOS square bottles (preferably never fitted to the car), I'd love to see them. Essentially, the other parts like screw top and inserts could all be reused.

kind regards
Marek

[PeterCrespin]

John Savage(?) at Cambridge Motor Sports 'borrowed' a pair of used OEM bottles and clamps off me as a pattern for the bottle holders they were going to make in stainless IIRC. I told him I'd eventually want them back so if he still has them they're yours. Can't remember if Angus asked and he'd got rid of them,,,

[rfs1957]

I've had 3 clutch reservoirs on my 3.8 since I owned it, I must be in for £75 by now and I've still got a car that leaks and probably has the wrong cap.

N° 1 had been on the car since 1989 and might have been original or a copy ; it fitted the bracket, and had the Girling lid seen here in the pictures complete with breather. I changed it because the exit was cracked, tho' it did have the steel insert.

N° 2 came from SNGB and was too small in diameter (required a rubber sheath to be gripped), didn't have the steel reinforcement on the exit stub, and I was too tired to complain. It lasted 5 years before I got tired of the weeping from a crack around the stub. The Girling lid fitted it, and it never leaked from there.



N° 3 is recent, May 2016, seen above, from SNGB ; it fits the bracket, has the steel spigot in the outlet stub, but the Girling cap now won't fit it ; it comes supplied with a plain alloy cap, which leaks because the cap collar binds on the body of the bottle before the rubber seal in the cap has been sufficiently compressed ; the bottle collar is 13.70 mm high, the cap depth to the rubber seal is 13.90mm - so there is no way this can work.



Seen here : new cap on left, Girling on right.



The adjacent brake bottle cap will fit the new clutch bottle.



And the Girling cap will fit the brake bottle.

So Q1. which would be the correct cap for a March 1962 3.8, and if it's the new plain one then Q2. WHY can't repro manufacturers get something as drop-dead obvious as collar lengths correct, and if it's not the plain one but the Girling that is the correct one, Q3. WHY can't repro manufacturers make bottles that fit the original caps ?

[Heuer]

Had this problem Rory. Original bottles cannot be repaired (I tried with a plastic weld gun), repro caps will not fit original bottles, original caps will not fit repro bottles. Older repro bottles will not fit the bottle holders. I found an original cap and with a bit of coercion it can be forced onto the repro bottles. The repro caps are the wrong shape, colour and thread.

Do you want Julian Barratts email address?

[rfs1957]

Yes, David, sadly you must be right - I thought I had heard that the latest batch of round ones had solved all these problems.

Send me that address. I'll be poilte, I promise.

[cactusman]

My 3.8 had old later square 4.2 bottles when I bought her. I replaced with round ones from SNGB. One did crack at the outlet but I think this was due to the rubber hose being too short and applying tension. A replacement bottle and slightly longer hose and all seems well so I would say the 3.8 bottles are fine from SNGB.
Same can't be said for the bracket they sent as it is mild steel. I have given up painting as any hint of a trickle of fluid while filling and off comes the paint. Now I rub it regularly with WD40 and scour for a sensibly priced stainless steel version. Why SNGB and parts suppliers in general persist in using mild steel for brackets and the like beats me. Stainless is not that much more costly (loads use it for exhaust pipes after all) and painted or not does not rust. It really is a no brainer SNGB and all you parts people remaking bits...unless there really is a good engineering reason to fabricate using mild steel then use stainless steel. Brackets, blanking plates, clips, bits of the heater box etc. even header and fuel tanks....non stressed so use SS not cheapo mild steel!!!! Rant over.

[rfs1957]

Julian - what caps did you use on the bottles ? Mine leaks with the supplied cap, full stop.

I'd like to agree with you about SS but since it wasn't original I can see why many would not want it, and as soon as it becomes a pressing - involving deformation rather than cutting - in my limited but not inexistant experience - it can be a much more difficult material to work with.

(As an aside, as regards using SS for bolts, I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that in many applications on my cars and bikes, where higher stresses are involved on chassis, suspension, motor-fitting areas, beyond any considerations of strength, fatigue-stability, work-hardening over time, there is the simple fact that on many occasions the torque applied does not produce the stretch required because of issues of galling on threads. My PO used a lot of SS bolts and in some areas I am progressively getting rid of them for that very reason - the giveaway is when you cannot tighten a nut without having to fight just as much with another spanner on the bolt-head.)

However, there is no excuse for manufacturers not plating their steel parts, when not destined to be painted, using either electolytic galavanising (zinc) or the yellower chromated zinc finish (which we call bi-chromate over here ?) which is often not very different to the white-blue of zinc but which doesn't tarnish to the same white-oxidised finish - these processes cost peanuts when done industrially. Neither are a visual substitute for the cadium that we would presumably have had originally, but we seem to be getting used to this.

[cactusman]

Yep!! Lids leak. The rubber seals are useless and the drips lift the paint. Applies to the clutch cap and also the brake ones with the sender switches. Afraid the only solution I have is to under fill by half an inch and just check before every run. The new lids are crap....full stop. Hope Julian Barratt reads this thread and addresses the problem of leaky lids....

I rebuilt my mg years back. I would never use SS nuts or bolts anywhere in the suspension or where stressed in the engine for the reason you give...and SS bolts are more brittle. However for bolting on heater boxes, relays, blanking plates, covers, and all the itsy bitsy bits I would always use stainless steel nuts bolts and washers as they simply don't rust. All my inlet manifold nuts are stainless steel but the studs are not. I have taken bolts off my mg after twenty years with ease. I have never had one break. I know those concourse people would disagree....but then they don't drive their cars....for ease of maintenance where possible stainless steel fixings make sense. If stainless steel can be fabricated into exhaust systems then it can be fabricated into brackets and clips so come on manufacturers....offer a stainless steel option. happy to pay a small premium but triple the price for the SS version and you are just profiteering.

[rfs1957]

Nine years on, and have things improved, please ?



Since 2016 I have been using the rather nasty SNGB plain-cap on the clutch reservoir I had from them, which has 1. no air-bleed, and 2. which required me to make my own seal as the one supplied was too thin, as my Girling cap - not strictly "original", but period, and same thread - won't fit.



See post #14 above.

I could live with the SNGB cap, I suppose, BUT whilst I can pressure-bleed the brakes, which use the SNGB bottles, and which will accept the Girling cap, my clutch one won't accept either that cap OR the pressure-bleeding cap, which is PITA.



Has anyone had a clutch bottle C18616 recently from SNGB and can tell me if the threads have improved ?