STICK OR TWIST

[Simon Templar]

Hello all,

I have not posted for a while but here is one for members to get their teeth into and I would value your feedback on this particular issue.

I have owned a 66 FHC for 2 years now - Old English White with biscuit interior. Personally I like the colour and interior combination but appreciate that a purist would say it should be a black or red interior - The interior condition is too good however to change. Does the colour combination have a negative affect on value I wonder?

Paid 28K from a dealer (Camberley Marine) and have spent a further 11K on upgrades and necessary mechanical work. Body was excellent having been restored from a Californian car in 94 and was owned by Ken/Peter Bell who know their Jags and I guess I was comforted by this provenance. - No signs of any rust anywhere and I guess that if there was a problem in this area it would be showing somewhere by now.

Expenditure has therefore been restricted to mechanical issues, usual upgrades with the exception of 5 speed box, new wires, tyres etc etc.

Have no plans to do great journeys in it so its really a sunday dry weather car. Where is this going I know you are asking - Well here is the stick or twist!

After owning now for 2 years I now know a lot more about these cars than I did and that regardless of what others may say, you can't buy a mint perfect car requiring no expenditure for 28K not that I thought you could anyway. I bought on the body and interior condition so I think I got that right.

I now know that my car needs a new diff (to replace the too highly geared 3.5.4 US diff which is leaking slightly) and a complete rear end strip out (brakes, shocks etc etc). It also requires a new stainless exhaust system and the engine is a bit tappety (holding good oil pressure and not using too much oil) but the engine is nonetheless noiser than it should be (suggested I have a top end overhaul to solve this one). I would like the rear bumper blades and the two door frames rechromed (to tidy these up to the standard of the paint) and there a couple of trim items that are missing plus engine detailing etc etc. Even then it will not win any rosettes but will be an excellent very well sorted example with desirable upgrades and to the casual onlooker will look a minter. To those that know however it will be a very nice example with very good bonnet and tailgate panel fit but the doors could have better shut lines as they sit slightly proud.

The above work plus top end overhall will I'm told cost in the region of 10K (and before you ask, no I don't do the work myself) and if I wanted to bring the car up to a higher standard I could throw 15K and more at it which still would not include any work on the door fit.

So my question is this

Would you stick with what I have (basically a very sound car) and spend further money taking my outlay to between 49K and 55K on a car that will never be good enough to command this value? (Car currently owes me 39K and is probably worth 30-32K (JEC Value for insurance is 38K). OR would you consider selling or a part ex against a mint fresh out of the box series 1 4.2 FHC with nothing more to do other than drive and service.

Can I in point of fact find another where everything has been done for 45k to 50K or as I rather suspect will I need to spend more money on further bits even on a FHC at this price level. To cover off the convertible issue - I know they are more sought after and are a better investment hence worth throwing more money at but can't afford to go to the 65K required for one so it has to be a FHC.

Anticipate keeping for 10/15 years at least so expenditure averaged over this time is reasonable either way I guess.

Interested in your views as I don't know which way to go - rock and a hard place springs to mind.

Regards to all

Simon. :(

[ian68]

Being fairly new to this game and in the knowledge that other, far more experienced owners will no doubt comment (and may well contradict!) never the less here is my tuppence worth......

Colour and value - You are probably correct in saying that for (most) prospective owners looking for an OEW car, they will probably be looking for a black/red interior, so I would expect your combination to be certainly less sought after, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and more to the point YOU like it. If you were to sell, then it may cause a slight drop in value, but in all probability it would more likely result in a longer selling time, i.e. you would probably get the right price, it may just take longer to find the right buyer..

Personally, I don't think you are going to get a 'mint' (in the term I classify mint as) Ser1 FHC from a dealer for ?50k. You may get a very tidy, good sound example but in my experience looking around most of the dealers last year for a car myself, it will NOT be mint.

You have stated that bodily your car is excellent (other than door shut lines) as it was restored from a Californian Car and as far as rust goes it is not a problem. You therefore have the most important factor in any E-type fully in your favour - its rust free!

You also have an excellent (if unusual colour, in combination with OEW) interior.

If it were me, I would spend the money on the car you have, if you are indeed looking to keep it for 10-15 years. I also never ever look at what a car 'owes' me. As far as i'm concerned the money I spend on my E-type keeping it in good order is disposable. If I sell my car in 5 years and get back my original purchase price then I would be happy. The rest is just what i'm happy to spend/throwaway on my 'hobby'.

You may of course be very lucky and find a privately owned car that is truly 'mint' for 50k that the owner needs to sell and wants a quick deal but don't hold your breath!

Good luck with your decision!

Ian

[AussieEtype]

I agree - keep the car you have and spend what you are happy to spend. If you trade up I can guarantee that you will still have to spend a similar amount of money on the new car as you would spend on your current car.

If you are happy with what you have stick with it - it sounds as if you know it inside and out.

I like biscuit interiors - here is Australia black interiors are a pain because your posterior gets burnt in the heat of summer.

Garry

[Simon Templar]

Thank you Ian,

A very considered response. I was interested in your comments regarding your search for an E. I assume that you looked at many cars from dealers - were these the likes of Racing Green, JD, Woodmanton classics etc that specialise in E types? Everyone's definition of mint varies but I guess I am referring to a car that would be 95 to 98% of a concours show car.

It seems the cars that you were looking at for 50K fell short of that mark.

Simon

[1954Etype]

Simon

depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want a show car and perfect in every detail, you will open up a money pit.

If you start rechroming and reconditioning for aesthetic reasons, you will find that the stuff you haven't touched will stand out.

If you are happy with your car, just improve it slowly. Fit a 3.07 diff. Have someone who has no interest in selling you a new top end listen to your engine - it m ight be fine, albeit noisy in your view).

You can ask someone like Ken Verity to have a look at the door gaps - if it is all original, I am sure something could be done to adjust the doors.

If it were my car, I would look to work with a trusted expert over a period of time, formulate a plan with them and start working your way through the stuff you want to do.

So, keep the car and control the costs in improvements. It seems to me that you have the basis for a really nice car.

[Car-Nut]

All good advice above...

I love biscuit interiors ..... not that Im biased

In my opinion with cars better the devil you know the devil you dont

[MarkE]

Simon?.STICK.

You know what you?ve got and you know its strengths and weaknesses. If you bought a mint out-of-the-box replacement from one of the well known restorers you?d be looking at the thick end of ?80k. Buy one from any other source and you could get lucky, if there are loads of before and after photos, and an inch of invoices. You could also get unlucky.

There is something satisfying about building a car to perfection, or close to it. But it?s also frustrating. My Black Coupe is fairly high up the scale, but it really was built to be used, and when I get hold of it, it will be used most days, but laid up between November and February. It will get parking dinks and a few stone chips, and the ?newness? will be replaced by a patina of use?and this is how I much prefer cars. Most E Types are over-restored?they never had shiny under-bonnets, gleaming radiators and header tanks, and all the rest of the nonsense that goes with a restored car. Once it?s had a few thousand miles under its belt, and the underbonnet is wiped over with WD40 rather than a polish, it should all start to look like it should. But for now, it looks like a 1:1 scale Airfix kit.

Is that really what you want? It sounds like a bit of improvement of items on your car would bring it all up to the level you want, without the bling. You have a solid base, which is more than most E Types currently on the road, and surely going through the car, bit by bit, will be a very satisfying and rewarding experience. And if you get all the components and chromework up to the level you want, well, you can always change the interior then.

Here?s my car now?a temporary aberration that will come good with use!!

[1954Etype]

Mark

nice looking car! Now, tell me, how did you get the gearstick gaitor to fit as you have? Mine is screwed to the gearbox cover with the retaining ring but the gaitor doesn't come up far enough to fill the hole now (even with the centre console (armrest) all the way down.

Angus

[Heuer]

Angus

I think you need two rubber grommets - the small one (which you have) is held in place by the retaining ring and this is the one used by the cars with the leather/ambla gaitor. The large rubber grommet (BD 27500) fits into the centre console and is there for 'cosmetic' reasons.

[MarkE]

Pretty sure that I re-used the original...never trust repro rubbish!

Here it is pre-restoration:



Here it is pre-trimming:

[Heuer]

I stand corrected. Based on Mark's photo there is only one grommet on the 4.2 - the big one. My car has the small grommet and the leather gaiter.

[MarkE]

I seem to remember that all OTS cars had the leather gaiter, with the rubber thingee only fitted to S1 4.2 FHC and 2+2 models, and then only for a while. Pretty sure that all S2 and S3 cars had the leather gaiter as well.

[1954Etype]

I seem to remember that all OTS cars had the leather gaiter, with the rubber thingee only fitted to S1 4.2 FHC and 2+2 models, and then only for a while. Pretty sure that all S2 and S3 cars had the leather gaiter as well.

Mark,

no. All cars went to the awful rubber gaiter for a short while. Must have been a cost saving exercise but probably failed because they couldn't get them to consistently fit while in production!

Angus

[Heuer]

Yes the 3.8's had a leather gaiter, early 4.2's had the rubber and later 4.2's had Ambla. I am guessing Jaguar got criticised for the rubber as it did look cheap.

[Car-Nut]

Yes the 3.8's had a leather gaiter

Another reason to buy a 3.8 .......

Lovely looking car Mark....... :D

[MarkE]

I kindof like the rubber bootee...looks functional!

But you can always put the soft leather gaiter on I guess. We'll know (now) though!

Got to remember that the Coupe was more aimed at the blokes. George Best, Donald Campbell and Jackie Stewart had the Coupe....Twiggy had a convertible :D

No, that doesn't work coming from a bloke with an S3 primrose convertible does it?!!

[ian68]

Simon,

Yes I looked around all the 'usual suspects' of dealers and for the 50k mark what the majority of them had were good solid useable cars, but they were FAR from 'mint'. (I believe we have similar views on what 'mint' is) Of the few genuinely 'mint' cars I came across at dealers for a FHC you were in the region of 70k upwards.

I was realistic in my endeavours, in as much as I knew I couldn't afford a 'mint' car. I just wanted an 'honest' older restoration (by 'honest' I mean lots of evidence, such as photo's, invoices etc.) that was good enough not to need re-doing from scratch and which I could improve over the coming years.

In the end I bought privately, because I thought I would be able to get better value, after all, the most honest of dealers still has to make a living and these are not cars they sell 25 a week of, so by necessity a dealers mark-up has to be a reasonable amount per car.

I was happy to do this, once I had gained some E-type specific knowledge (much of which was supplied by the excellent members of this Forum) because having restored cars previously, I believed I had a good chance of spotting a dud. (mind you, there is no guarantee!)

If you are not experienced in vehicles, this may be a risk some people are not willing to take.

Let us know what you decide to do.

Regards,

Ian

[christopher storey]

May I add a word or two on a subject which has not been covered above. I agree with the advice given, but for slightly different reasons : however much you pay , if you change the car you get a totally unknown quantity. Every engine is set up differently - some have the later parabolic cams, some people become obsessed with higher and higher compression ratios , some people alter other parts of the the specification, and what suited them may not suit you. Similarly, people set up suspensions differently, adjustable dampers , thicker roll bars etc , and the same applies. Furthermore, these cars, however well restored, are old and to some extent temperamental, because the quality in particular of the electrical components and connectors was not as reliable as that which we expect today . Another hazard is the bodger - the car may look beautiful but be full of traps for the unwary : I am still finding them in the FHC I have had for 16 years despite the fact that I am nearing the end of a total rebuild!. The virtue of your car is that you know exactly what you have

PS : what is often thought to be tappet noise turns out to be top timing chain slackness - the difference between silence and noise is often no more than 1 notch on the chain aduster!

[Simon Templar]

Mark,

You have a great looking car - who did the work on it and what have you had done - a full resto?

[MarkE]

Every last nut and bolt, Simon. Like yours, it was a Southern Californian car. It looked like a shed, but it was rust free, complete and had perfect clearances. Back in the mid 90s, there were quite a few like this to choose from.

It was fairly quick getting it to this stage, about 10 years ago:



The bodywork was done by a one man band who's an absolute perfectionist. The mechanical work was done by a guy who came out of retirement for one last full restoration...he's done a couple since, and is now well into his 70s! This was a base car for him, as he's restored C Types, SS100s, Invictas, Ferraris, Astons and many other exotic machines. Another perfectionist, and a complete tyrant to work for and supply to! Then CMC have finished it off, with the final adjustments, trimming and set-up.

It will be coming back from CMC very soon (I'm assured!). You're very welcome to pop over and inspect...I'm only 30 miles away. It won't look like this for long!