Bell Housing - Starter Motor problem

[trev_car]

Hi need help
On final stages of Series 2 E Type restoration.
On turning the ignition key there was a terrible sound of grinding metal.
Found this is an issue with the starter motor which had ground the edge off the flywheel teeth.
After a couple of days of head scratching found out I had a series 1 bell housing fitted, which I know have different mounting positions for the starter motor.
The flywheel and starter motor are series 2.
How do I resolve the problem.
Will series 1 starter motor fit or is it an engine out job.
All help would be appreciated.

[tinworm]

How many teeth on your ring gear Trev ? You will find a few threads on here about this - basically all parts need to come from the same series either 3.8 or 4.2 these parts are flywheel bellhousing and starter .

Barrie

[mgcjag]

Hi Trev.....not sure how this may affect your set up but there is a pacer (starter motor spigot plate)C22488 for 4.2 that fits between the starter motor and bell housing...

[christopher storey]

Trev : there is no difference in the starter/bellhousing setup between any 4.2 car, and all 4.2 cars should have 132 teeth on the starter ring . Where there is a difference is between 3.8 and 4.2 bellhousings and starters. The 3.8 starter is inertia type, the 4.2 are pre-engaged type . Basically, the rule is that 3.8 and 4.2 setups can only be used with all 3.8 parts ( flywheel, bell and starter ) or all 4.2 parts ( ditto ) i.e. you cannot pick and mix parts . Check first, as Steve has said , that you have fitted the spacer ( and that you have a pre-engaged and not inertia motor ) . If that is present, but you are still getting the failure to engage properly , count the teeth on the flywheel and see that there are 132 and not 104 or even worse 133. If that is in order i.e.132, then check that the sliding pre-engagement mechanism is clean and working properly

Incidentally I doubt that you will have ground teeth off or otherwise done any harm at this stage

[trev_car]

Found I definitely have a series 1 bell housing and flywheel and starter motor are definitely series 2.
After lots of technical research found the starter motor is too far away from the flywheel by 4mm therefore the teeth only engage into each other by about 1mm.
I have found a fix for this problem - a new starter motor available from Brise Ltd which has a 4mm offset basically a modified version of C22488 spacer which is fitted to the starter motor.
Thank you all for your interest and post which is much appreciated.

[PeterCrespin]

Good luck, but you seemingly haven't read the advice properly.*

Out of interest, how did you come to the conclusion your parts were what you say they are? How did you decide they were mis-matched or from the cars you suggest?

As has been said, it doesn't matter what series the parts are from, it matters what engine type (of which the two incompatible types might easily both be Series 1....). As for reach deficiencies, all the flywheels have essentially the same fore/aft positioning with respect to the ring gear distance from the bell or block face, so whereas a mis-match of otherwise standard parts is problematic, the symptom is not normally insufficient throw into the ring gear. As I said, good luck.

Pete

*Chris's point was correct but the numbering a touch inexact. The standard 4.2 flywheel has 133 teeth (see my dirty fingers from counting two used ones?). The automatic ring gear has 134 IIRC, although it's a long time since I counted one. The 3.8, as Chris said, is much coarser at 104 to suit the Bendix inertia starter.

[David Oslo]

Trev,

When you say that you have a S1 bellhousing, and this is putting the starter pinion too far away (radially I presume) from the flywheel teeth, I guess this means that you have a 3.8 liter bellhousing? With the Brise part "Jaguar 3.8 with 4.2 flywheel 8926094-5AXG" being the fix. Right ?

Another fix would be to pop on a 4.2 bellhousing, picked up cheap secondhand. But of course if engine is in the car, this is a couple of weekends of work. 'Cheaper' to change the starter.

[christopher storey]

Peter : thanks for correcting my mistake. For clarity

E type 3.8 104 teeth

E type 4.2 S1 and S2 133 teeth

The reference to 132 teeth is in case the flywheel came from earlier large engines such as Mark VII/VIII/IX or XK 150

I reiterate that in the case of 4.2 litre cars, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between Series 1 and Series 2 bellhousings or starters or flywheels . The difference lies between 3.8 housings and 4.2 housings

[Durango2k]

I tested my starter before fitting the block to the car. To do so, simply put the chain so deep inside the block it won't grip, with the head not fitted to the block.

And the connect a battery and fire her up.

Funny to see all 6 pistons moove up and down.

Then, mount block plus bellhousing plus gearbox to chassis, and fit head later.

Carsten

[trev_car]

Hi, sorry for giving out the incorrect information. Didn't mean to upset anyone.

The bell housing is a 3.8. The original bell housing was damaged beyond repair and there for a second hand one purchased which was incorrect for the car as it is a 4.2

I had no idea of the matching parts(Bell housing , Starter motor , Flywheel) till the starter motor failed. It did turn over the engine but sounded terrible.

Mixing the two do's offset the pinion gear on the starter motor by 4mm away from the flywheel.

As a result the flywheel suffered some damage of about 1mm to the top of each tooth all the way around.

David's post is 100% correct as regards of a fix I believe.

Thanks Again!
Trev

[PeterCrespin]

I tested my starter before fitting the block to the car. To do so, simply put the chain so deep inside the block it won't grip, with the head not fitted to the block.

And the connect a battery and fire her...

This sounds risky. I hope your timing gear survived.