Gearbox numbers - matching or not

[Philk]

Hi all, I've been looking at a S1 E-type where the Moss box has the correct number (matching to the data plate and the Heritage Certificate) on the top of the gearbox case (ie the top cover) and a different number on the gearbox main body (ie on the rear left hand top corner of the gearbox). From a Heritage perspective is this still a numbers matching car? Does the bottom carcass of the gearbox always need to tie in with the top? On a lot of websites, they quote the top plate number as being the identification number. Would an exchange gearbox have kept the top cover?

Would welcome views.... Many thanks

[PeterCrespin]

The cast-iron casing is the gearbox, the lid is the lid. Same as engine. You can have an original engine with a replacement head but it's still the original engine. The other way round is a replacement engine with the original head.

So you have a replacement gearbox (non-numbers-matching, if you care) with the original lid or a doctored replacement one (alloy is easier to fiddle than iron).

The reason people say the lid is the key part, IMO, is half of them don't know or don't want to find out the cast-iron box is numbered as well.

[288gto]

Being the cynic that I am, I would suggest that someone has merely re stamped the cover not knowing that the side of the gearbox case is also stamped. Another scenario might be that the gearbox may have been replaced and the original cover with the selectors re fitted. Either way I'm not convinced you could call this a "matching numbers" car.
To me, matching numbers means, original engine, gearbox and body shell. If you wanted to be really fussy that would include the flywheel and crankshaft which are also stamped. Early cars also have the VIN number stamped on the bonnet.
A case of Triggers broom.

Simon

[paulsco]

Can you tell me where the number is stamped on the gearbox case?

I thought it was only stamped on the top; I didn't see anything other than casting numbers on my casing?

Thanks,

Paul

[288gto]

Paul,

It's stamped on one of the square lugs on the top corner of the casing, directly below the cover flange. It's quit hard to see and probably obscured by years of oil and grime. Forgive the clumsy arrows, I did it on my phone.



Simon

[mgcjag]

Info here on Moss gearbox id and prefix... and where matching numbers should be .http://www.jag-lovers.org/xk-lovers/lib ... ation.html

[38E]

If your car is an early '62, the factory record keeping (and therefor the certificate information) was not stellar (presumably because of the rush to meet demand at that time) so I wouldn't worry too much about it. More importantly, how does the Moss box shift and how does it sound because most replacement parts for them are prohibitively expensive.

[paulsco]

Thank you all for your input.

I may have been a bit quick to ask this question; mine is an all syncro 65 box, not a Moss.

It may well not have additional numbers??

Picture 6011 by paul scott, on Flickr

Paul

[Philk]

Being the cynic that I am, I would suggest that someone has merely re stamped the cover not knowing that the side of the gearbox case is also stamped. Another scenario might be that the gearbox may have been replaced and the original cover with the selectors re fitted. Either way I'm not convinced you could call this a "matching numbers" car.
To me, matching numbers means, original engine, gearbox and body shell. If you wanted to be really fussy that would include the flywheel and crankshaft which are also stamped. Early cars also have the VIN number stamped on the bonnet.
A case of Triggers broom.

Simon

When we looked at the case, there was no evidence we could see of the top being re-stamped so I believe this was possibly a lower case swap many years ago (the car has been in storage for 10 years and the previous owner had it for 20 years before that). The layer of engrained dirt present across the top of the gearbox would tend to suggest this was done when the car was last renovated (perhaps in the eighties).

[Philk]

The cast-iron casing is the gearbox, the lid is the lid. Same as engine. You can have an original engine with a replacement head but it's still the original engine. The other way round is a replacement engine with the original head.

So you have a replacement gearbox (non-numbers-matching, if you care) with the original lid or a doctored replacement one (alloy is easier to fiddle than iron).

The reason people say the lid is the key part, IMO, is half of them don't know or don't want to find out the cast-iron box is numbered as well.

This is helpful, thank you. The car does have matching numbers on the engine head, block, on the body and Picture rail, all of which tie to the Heritage Certificate we have seen and the data plate (which looks to be untouched). The top plate on the gearbox also looks original and untouched. As such, the car would have the top part of its gearbox assembly "numbers matching" but not the main box. I am guessing that this is better than having a completely non-matching gearbox but take your point that the cast-iron casing is the main element making up the unit.

We're considering getting the car for a full end to end restoration (which will be expensive). The key question to us is what difference there might be on the end-value of a car which is fully numbers matching and one which has most of the numbers matching.

[mgcjag]

Hi Phil....if you were selling it after the resto you wouldnt advertise it as part matching numbers would you....the people looking for that special high end car focus on the numbers.......so two cars exactly tbe same side by side one matching and one not.....what one do you have

[Philk]

Thank you all for your input.

I may have been a bit quick to ask this question; mine is an all syncro 65 box, not a Moss.

It may well not have additional numbers??

Picture 6011 by paul scott, on Flickr

Paul

I believe it will still have an additional number. See:

http://classicregister.com/content/how- ... l-and-42l
There, it states the following (under Section 7):

Location of gearbox number:

The gearbox number will appear on the vehicle's data plate, as well as in the following locations on the gearbox itself:

Moss Gearbox:
•Stamped into the gearbox casing on a small rectangular area on top of the gearbox casing (next to a large circular plug)

Jaguar Gearbox:
•Stamped into the top of the transmission (on the aluminium gearbox cover flange edge).
•Stamped into the side of the gearbox body on a small square block (top edge - right hand side of vehicle).

[PeterCrespin]

"The key question to us is what difference there might be on the end-value of a car which is fully numbers matching and one which has most of the numbers matching."

Indeed.

Would Sir like some winning lottery numbers with his answer, or just a modest Premium Bond win and a garnish of Grand National placings?

PS, I cannot recall ever seeing a 4-synchro casing number anywhere other than the rectangular pad at the upper left rear corner of the casing, adjacent to where the alloy top cover is stamped (along the left rear side of the cover flange.)

[andrewh]

like this.