V12 E-type EFI

Talk about the E-Type Series 3
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#1 V12 E-type EFI

Post by jagwit » Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:18 pm

Just for interest:

I used to have an OTS (sold it to make room for Jensen). Long story but the short version is than when the original engine seized a bearing and ALMOST broke a conrod, I decided to convert it to HE spec having already converted it to EFI before.

The end result:
Image

Image

Image

My good friend had a 2001 Jaguar XKR Coupe (4.0 Supercharged). He could not outrun me, I could not outrun him.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 S3 XKE, 74 S3 XKE OTS, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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#2 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by lundabo » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:28 am

Philip, nice to see you back in the fold...

I know your old OTS had a little bit more going on under those EFI intakes...I imagine it takes a bit more than an EFI swap to go head to head with an R model. :smile:

Was wondering if you had any view on what a swap to EFI would do for power/mileage on my 73 OTS. I have been gathering some parts in case I decided to do the swap, and now have the intakes, throttle bodies, fuel rail, 9 injectors, capstan...but not sure if I want to fix what is not broken...any thoughts?
Bill Gutierrez
1961 OTS - under :hammerdrill:
1973 OTS - mostly working

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#3 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by jagwit » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:13 am

lundabo wrote:Philip, nice to see you back in the fold...

I know your old OTS had a little bit more going on under those EFI intakes...I imagine it takes a bit more than an EFI swap to go head to head with an R model. :smile:

Was wondering if you had any view on what a swap to EFI would do for power/mileage on my 73 OTS. I have been gathering some parts in case I decided to do the swap, and now have the intakes, throttle bodies, fuel rail, 9 injectors, capstan...but not sure if I want to fix what is not broken...any thoughts?
Thank you! My answer my surprise you....

Other than EFI, it was the higher compression 11:1 (USA spec ) pistons, and HE heads that yielded so much more power. But everything including the heads and cam was still 100% standard HE. This car had a torque curve as flat as a table from 1000rpm all the way to 5500.

An EFI swop on its own might even turn out to be disappointing, only because the difference in performance (and economy) before and after may end up being smaller than expected (provided the carbs and timing was set to optimal before). The S3 Coupe I now have goes very, very well and the only mods to this car is a Lumenition ignition system with a vacuum ADVANCE diaphragm (latter only aids economy, not power). My point is that, if there IS a HUGE difference before and after, it simply means that the EFI has mostly corrected whatever was not correct on the standard car.

If my OTS was running like my present car, I would not have bothered with EFI. I WOULD HAVE BOTHERED with an overdrive transmission!! Even on my present car I am just SOOOO tempted to fit an overdrive transmission as open road is what it does most.

What I'm saying is that unless you really want to race bigger stuff, just get your standard car 100% sorted (save $$$) and it should be a most rewarding drive. If you do a lot of open road, an overdrive transmission will do A LOT MORE than EFI towards economy.

PS: What the V12 E needs MOST, is a vacuum ADVANCE diaphragm. This you can get off any XJS / XJ12 / DD6 or new of course.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 S3 XKE, 74 S3 XKE OTS, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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#4 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by lundabo » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:38 pm

Thank you! My answer my surprise you....

Other than EFI, it was the higher compression 11:1 (USA spec ) pistons, and HE heads that yielded so much more power. But everything including the heads and cam was still 100% standard HE. This car had a torque curve as flat as a table from 1000rpm all the way to 5500.

An EFI swop on its own might even turn out to be disappointing, only because the difference in performance (and economy) before and after may end up being smaller than expected (provided the carbs and timing was set to optimal before). The S3 Coupe I now have goes very, very well and the only mods to this car is a Lumenition ignition system with a vacuum ADVANCE diaphragm (latter only aids economy, not power). My point is that, if there IS a HUGE difference before and after, it simply means that the EFI has mostly corrected whatever was not correct on the standard car.

If my OTS was running like my present car, I would not have bothered with EFI. I WOULD HAVE BOTHERED with an overdrive transmission!! Even on my present car I am just SOOOO tempted to fit an overdrive transmission as open road is what it does most.

What I'm saying is that unless you really want to race bigger stuff, just get your standard car 100% sorted (save $$$) and it should be a most rewarding drive. If you do a lot of open road, an overdrive transmission will do A LOT MORE than EFI towards economy.

PS: What the V12 E needs MOST, is a vacuum ADVANCE diaphragm. This you can get off any XJS / XJ12 / DD6 or new of course.


I was reading your thread on the vacuum advance with interest. Seems there is a lack of consensus on the issue. I am interested in what you are observing in terms of fuel savings with the vacuum advance. Believe it or not, I don't really care if I am getting 12 or 14 mpg from a cost standpoint...I don't drive the car enough to be concerned. My bigger concern is driving range. Seems that if I take a spirited ride on the West Coast mountains here, I have less than a 150 mile range, which is a bit ridiculous. My Jeep Grand Cherokee can go 500+ and I could squeeze out 600+ on my old DD (audi A8).

I am soon going to swap in an SNG Barratt CEI distributor...if this is a worthwhile mod (the vacuum advance) it seems that should be addressed simultaneously. Do you agree?
Bill Gutierrez
1961 OTS - under :hammerdrill:
1973 OTS - mostly working

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#5 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by jagwit » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:36 pm

lundabo wrote: I was reading your thread on the vacuum advance with interest. Seems there is a lack of consensus on the issue. I am interested in what you are observing in terms of fuel savings with the vacuum advance.

I am soon going to swap in an SNG Barratt CEI distributor...if this is a worthwhile mod (the vacuum advance) it seems that should be addressed simultaneously. Do you agree?
I've only owned this car since Nov last year, so I don't have "BEFORE" data. What I can tell you is that my car is giving me between 14 and 16mpg(US) BUT, 1) the car has a 3.31 diff and 2) the speedo overreads by 12% (because of the diff), so I'm really not sure how accurate the distance component of my records are and 3) our speed limit is 75mph and we do tend to sneak well beyond that (we do have lots of roads that suits such fun), 4) I live at 4000ft where barometric pressure is 0.85 Bar and normally aspirated engines lose about about 15% of their power output (I have no idea how much this last point affects economy).

I don't believe there is lack of consensus that timing advance is what the V12 needs. Billions of gasoline cars before and after the E rely on vacuum advance to optimise the engine under partial throttle conditions. Thus there can be no doubt that this V12 engine (and the environment) can also benefit from vacuum advance.

There IS lack of consensus on WHEN and HOW vacuum should be applied to the diaphragm. This debate is mostly focused on whether ported vacuum (from the carb) or permanent vacuum (from manifold) is required. I have not yet found ANYONE ANYWHERE that has given good reasons WHYported vacuum is required over permanent vacuum. They all just say it "MUST" be ported as if this is gospel but nobody ever says WHY. I am confident that should credible reasons eventually be found from a credible (unbiased) source, they will be based largely on emissions and as you may know, emissions and engine optimization seldom see eye-to-eye. Mine is running on permanent manifold vacuum and my car is 100% happy. In my opinion there is no need to risk destroying a carb with drilling just because some said it "MUST" have ported vacuum without substantiating the "must".

If your car gives you less than 150miles, there is A LOT wrong with your car, from fuel leaks to badly tuned carbs, to faulty fuel gauge, to carbonised valves etc. My car will easily give me a 500km (310mile) range (open road). Tomorrow's 250km trip will hopefully again prove so.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 S3 XKE, 74 S3 XKE OTS, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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#6 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by MLBS3V12 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:56 pm

Philip
i suppose that your car run well also because of the EFI management. Megasquirt was certainly helpfull.
Michel.
Le chemin sera long!...

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#7 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by jagwit » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:05 pm

Michel, the car I have now is 99.9% standard.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 S3 XKE, 74 S3 XKE OTS, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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#8 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by chrisfell » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:37 pm

I have a dream car in my head. It is a series 3 roadster with a five speed box driving a 2.88 axle. The engine is a 6+ litre EFI with slightly wilder cams, programmable ECU to cope with high and low octane fuels. Wheels are 16" x 6.5" wires. Central locking in the doors, alarm. Free flowing exhaust, LED headlamps......... capped off with an electric roof, modified from a modern donor car.

It is only a dream........
Chris '67 S1 2+2

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#9 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by lundabo » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:10 pm

jagwit wrote:I've only owned this car since Nov last year, so I don't have "BEFORE" data. What I can tell you is that my car is giving me between 14 and 16mpg(US) BUT, 1) the car has a 3.31 diff and 2) the speedo overreads by 12% (because of the diff), so I'm really not sure how accurate the distance component of my records are and 3) our speed limit is 75mph and we do tend to sneak well beyond that (we do have lots of roads that suits such fun), 4) I live at 4000ft where barometric pressure is 0.85 Bar and normally aspirated engines lose about about 15% of their power output (I have no idea how much this last point affects economy).

I don't believe there is lack of consensus that timing advance is what the V12 needs. Billions of gasoline cars before and after the E rely on vacuum advance to optimise the engine under partial throttle conditions. Thus there can be no doubt that this V12 engine (and the environment) can also benefit from vacuum advance.

There IS lack of consensus on WHEN and HOW vacuum should be applied to the diaphragm. This debate is mostly focused on whether ported vacuum (from the carb) or permanent vacuum (from manifold) is required. I have not yet found ANYONE ANYWHERE that has given good reasons WHYported vacuum is required over permanent vacuum. They all just say it "MUST" be ported as if this is gospel but nobody ever says WHY. I am confident that should credible reasons eventually be found from a credible (unbiased) source, they will be based largely on emissions and as you may know, emissions and engine optimization seldom see eye-to-eye. Mine is running on permanent manifold vacuum and my car is 100% happy. In my opinion there is no need to risk destroying a carb with drilling just because some said it "MUST" have ported vacuum without substantiating the "must".

If your car gives you less than 150miles, there is A LOT wrong with your car, from fuel leaks to badly tuned carbs, to faulty fuel gauge, to carbonised valves etc. My car will easily give me a 500km (310mile) range (open road). Tomorrow's 250km trip will hopefully again prove so.

Not sure there is anything intrinsically wrong with my car...loafing on the freeway I can get 14-16 mpg. It's in the hills with spirited driving that it drops down to 10 mpg or less. I often confuse my fuel gauge with my tach its moving so fast. Do you have any instructions on how to make the change to vacuum advance on a 73?
Bill Gutierrez
1961 OTS - under :hammerdrill:
1973 OTS - mostly working

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#10 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by jagwit » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:38 pm

lundabo wrote: Do you have any instructions on how to make the change to vacuum advance on a 73?
1) Obtain vacuum advance diaphragm;
2) Fit it;
3) Connect the vacuum port to intake manifold

OK, that was a bit tongue-in-cheek but it is just about that simple.

1) Obtain either a used one (its diaphragm should still be intact) or a new one;
2) Fit it to the dissy. No mods are needed. It simply fits in place of the old. IIRC, it was really easy.
3) Connect its vacuum port to the intake manifold. Mine is T-ed into the pipe that feeds vacuum to the brakes.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 S3 XKE, 74 S3 XKE OTS, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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#11 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by jagwit » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:48 pm

In case there is doubt. It is perfectly reversible of course.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 S3 XKE, 74 S3 XKE OTS, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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#12 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by lundabo » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:57 pm

jagwit wrote:In case there is doubt. It is perfectly reversible of course.
That's what it sounded like.

I have a few questions if you don't mind. I read somewhere that the current set up has a retard feature which is designed to reduce emissions at idle but otherwise, it cuts off and has no effect at speed...is that right? Is there no advance feature on the E-V12 distributor? What adjustments, if any, must be made to the timing or idle?

Thanks
Bill Gutierrez
1961 OTS - under :hammerdrill:
1973 OTS - mostly working

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#13 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by jagwit » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:17 am

lundabo wrote:I have a few questions if you don't mind. I read somewhere that the current set up has a retard feature which is designed to reduce emissions at idle but otherwise, it cuts off and has no effect at speed...is that right?
I believe that to be correct. However American cars apparently has additional circuitry which I read about in a thread somewhere. Bottom line is that once the the vacuum advance is installed, its vacuum port goes DIRECTLY to manifold vacuum. All other "stuff" gets disabled / plugged etc.
lundabo wrote:Is there no advance feature on the E-V12 distributor? What adjustments, if any, must be made to the timing or idle?
Yes, the V12 E also has "CENTRIFUGAL" advance. This is timing advance that depends ONLY on RPM. A certain amount of centrifugal advance should already be present at idle and should increase as RPMs increase. It certainly is worth while checking with your timing light that this mechanism is working.

Vacuum advance functions completely INDEPENDENTLY from centrifugal and this timing is ADDED to whatever timing centrifugal has already dialed in. Vacuum advance is also analog, ie small amounts of timing is added with little vacuum and larger amounts is added with more vacuum. At full throttle, vacuum advance should have very little or no effect.

Here in Africa, we are not as regulated as what you are in the US. Your emissions regulations may therefore force a different approach. Strictly speaking you should set the timing as per "the book" with vacuum disconnected. Then connect vacuum. Keep in mind whatever is written in "the book" was also subject to emissions (of those days!!!).

The way I set timing is to "chuck the book" & LISTEN to the engine as I adjust the dissy, to find the point where the engine just reaches max idle rpm (also with vacuum disconnected), where I lock the dissy down and then I connect the vacuum. Just note that this method sets timing to the optimal point AT IDLE - not at 3000rpm (where different timing may be required. This is the advantage of an ECU programmable timing setup - where you can set the timing - but only on a braked dyno - most optimally at any RPM and any throttle position. The Megajolt/EDIS systems the 6-cyl guys rave about is an example but of no value to us V12s. This is Eutopia for any gasoline engine - and another reason my ex EFI'ed OTS runs so well.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 S3 XKE, 74 S3 XKE OTS, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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#14 Re: V12 E-type EFI

Post by Woolfi » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:17 pm

Here are the good reasons , why a advance capsule MUST be connected to PORTED vacuum. If you don't believe, I can send a picture from a professionell "Bosch" book about "motor-management".
If you connect it to one of the 12 "pipes" between carb and inlet valve, you have MAXIMUM vacuum at idle. If you adjust the static ignition to 10 to 12 before TDC and add roundabout 16 degree (at the crank) from the advance capsule, you have roundabout 26 - 28 degreee ignition before TDC at iddle. At this amount of pre-ignition the motos has many "non-igniotions" at idle (the piston is too much before TDC and the compression of the small "gas-cloud" at iddle is too small, to ignite the micture in 100% of all revs), is shaking, and you have a very bad smell out of the exhaus because of unburned hydrocarbons. I have measured this all with a 4-gas tester. 2000 ppm of HC is too MUCH.
If you do like this, you have to turn the distributor back to roundabout 0 to 4 degree before TDC, that the motor is running "well". But if you do like this, you have much too less preignition at full throttle and the motor is a litle bit too lazy at full throttle. Maybe you don't feel this lack of punch on a english road. On a german highway you can feel it very easy beyond 120 mph. You press the pedl . . . . and the "rabbits" are still passing.

I have bought my EV12 in 2001. The owner has mounted a advance capsule und connected to the drilling at the LHR carb below (full vacuum at iddle). I fiddled 2 years with problems, spoke to some garage idiots, which know nothing about this problems, red some books and started thinking and investigation about ignition.
1. Every gas motor is running best, if the motor has a advance of roundabout some (3 - 12 degree before tdc) degrees at idle, a lot of degrees before tdc at part throttle and less degree before tdc at full throttle.
2. The motor delievers more horsepower at part throttle / or needs less gas for the same amount of delievred power, if the time of ignition is lets say at 3500 rpm and 20% cylinder filling (part throttle), earlier than of the same rpm and full throttle, because a lower cylinder filling has a lower pressure nearby TDC and is burning slower. Power is max, if the point of highest pressure of the exploding gases is roundabout 6 - 10 degree after TDC. If a small filling is burning longer, it must be ignited earlier.
How can a simple (analoge) ignition system realise this demanded "curves" ?
4. For the V12 and the XK-motor roundbaout 10 degree at idle are good for a stable idle. Therefore set static ignition on 10 degree before tdc.
4. For the maximum early ignition without pinking and detonation at full throttle the advance curve is "formed" by the advance system with the wights. The higher the revs, the more early the ignition. If the burning-time of a full load is the same, the ignition-timie must be more early at high revs, that the point of highestprssure in the cylinder is allways roundabout 6 - 10 degrees after TDC.
5. If the timing shall be earlier at part throttle, "pre-time" has to be "added" by a separate system, depending on the load. The amount of load you can measure by the amount of vacuum /pressure below normal pressure between the "air-door" in the carb and the valves of the motor.
6. The amount of added pre-ignition shall be low at idle. Therefore you need a construction which gives no vaccum to the advance capsule at idle. If the capsule is connected to a port 2 - 4 mm BEFORE the butterfly, the vacuum at iddle is low. The capsule need a minimum vacuum to start to work. Therefore zero added-pretime at idel. Works well.
7. If the butterfly of the carb is wide open, the amount if vacuum at this port is again low. No added advance timing at wot. The piont of ignition is maaged by the advance system of the wights. Works well.
8. At part throttle, the 1 mm thick "end" of the butterfly in the car is nearby the port, the cleft between the butterfly and the wall of the cabr is small, the gas speed is high and therefore the vacuum is high. With low load, slow burning of the mixture in the combustion chamber, a lot of pre-ignition is needed. The vacuum advance-system generates max vacuum, the capsule generates max advance. The motor works well.
I have done this at my car. I had to drill this port into my carb. After some fiddling with the drilling ending at the wrong positon , closing the drilling and drilling again, the motor runs very well.
The result of the added vacuum-advance system is, that the motor takes less gas at 90 of its running time. Maybe 5 % less gas consumption. I have not exactly measure before and after.
The original retard-system of the EV12 was just to run hotter / less colder in the minutes after starting, that the gas-poisons (HC and CO) in the burned gases are lower. The motor runs hotter and therefore becomes hotter more quick. If the cylinder load is ignited later, the gases are staying hotter when leaving the cylinder. The energy is not transformed into working power. The energy remains as heat in the gas.
If you have understood all, drill this hole into the LHR carb and connect a rubber hose to the advance-capsule.
I have done this all. The cars runs very well. Because of the information from the internet and my books I am shure, that the "stuff", what I have written her, is 95% correct.
I have mounted to my advance capsule a hand-pressure for vacuum. I drove 70 mph in steady state and gave vacuum to the capsule by hand. Then I opened a valve at the hand-pressure, that the vacuum fall to zero suddenly. I felt very clear a slightly beaking of the car and a speed which was 2 - 3 km lower. This shows me, that the power of a certain amount of gas-air mixture burned earlier at small part throttle is producing a little bit more power / torque than burned roundabout 16 (depending of the type of capsule) degree later without the vacuum-advance system. The diffence in gas consumption is not big. But in 16 years with 5 - 6000 miles every year it is becomming a nice amount, worth the money and work I have spent to mount the correct vacuum-advance system. :wink:
http://georgiajag.com/Documents/Vacuum% ... Retard.htm
Excuse my simple english.
Regards Wolfgang Gatza

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