Oil Pressure

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Mark Gordon
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#1 Oil Pressure

Post by Mark Gordon » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:50 pm

I know that this topic has been discussed ad nauseam over the years but here goes again. Over the past few weeks, my oil pressure which has always read 60 lb cold, then settled down to 40 lb hot to maybe 35 hot at idling, has suddenly dropped to 40 hot and down to about 5 lb at hot idle. I know that the senders are notorious for being inaccurate, but with the sudden change, I didn't want to take a chance. A common source of the problem is a stuck or clogged relief valve, so my first check was for problems with the relief valve.

Naively, I though that I could remove the valve from beneath the car. Nope! To get it off, I had to remove the air filter box, the oil filter, drain the sump, remove both the filter adapter plate and relieve valve return hose (along with the sump spigot that the hose attaches to), cut the frozen clamps on the hose, and then unscrew the relief valve. While I was at it, I also removed, inspected and cleaned the bypass valve. I was encouraged when I found a small piece of metal swarf sitting in the seat of the relief valve. I think that you can see what looks like a tiny o-ring at about 7 o'clock down in the valve seat.


Image

Eureka! That explains it! I cleaned everything up, made new gaskets for the adapter and sump spigot, put everything back together and refilled the engine oil. To my disappointment, the pressure is as bad or worse than before. Now, it struggles to reach 40 lb. at 2700 rpm (hot) and at idle drops down close to 0. Unless someone has a better idea, I guess my next step is to install a mechanical pressure gauge and see what I'm really getting. If those readings are indeed accurate, how can I tell whether the problem is with the pressure relief or bypass valve, oil pump, or, heaven forbid, big end bearings?
Mark

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#2 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Hugo » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:04 pm

Well, bearing shells don't wear out suddenly. Big ends have been know to come undone, but you would soon hear that.
I can't quite make out what is in your pic - you said there was a piece of swarf in the pressure relief valve? I'd like to know what it is and more importantly where it came from.
40 psi is not too terrible, and you don't really need any pressure at idle, but it sounds like something is going on if it has suddenly dropped.
As you say, the first thing to do is verify the readings with a separate gauge & then take it from there. I would still be a bit suspicious of the pressure relief valve, although the work you have done would seem to rule it out. Maybe there's another bit of swarf found its way in there? In which case you've definitley got to find the source.
There's noting worse when you're patting yourself on the back for having found the problem and dealt with it, only to find you haven't!
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#3 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Mark Gordon » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:54 pm

"I can't quite make out what is in your pic - you said there was a piece of swarf in the pressure relief valve? "

If you click on the photo, it will enlarge and you can see what looks like a metal o-ring that's about the size of the head of a pin. No idea what it is or where it came from. I thought that perhaps it was some left over machining debris from when I rebuilt the engine four years ago, although it's been through several oil and filter changes. I have a good close up camera at work and I can use it to take a photo of the object and post it. I won't be back in the office until Wednesday.
Mark

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#4 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Hugo » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:06 pm

Hah! I never knew you could do that! (enlarge the pic). That doesn't look like a 'piece of swarf'; it looks like something quite specific. But what?!
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#5 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by NickJ » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:21 pm

I maybe able to offer some advice as I have had 2 sudden drops in oil pressure from a rebuilt engine last year. The first occasion I had just done the first oil and filter change at 250 miles. The pressure dropped to the mid 20's at 2.000 rpm and zero at tickover. The engine builder rebuilt it again after some "detailed discussions". I won't mention his name but he does not advertise in the E Type Club magazine. I did not get a sensible explanation from him. The pressure dropped off again after about 150 miles to c 30 lbs. on the second rebuild. I used an external gauge to verify the electric one, which was just about the same reading. Lost the will to live after nasty accusations from said engine builder. Decided to investigate so dropped the sump and took out the oil pump this Spring. It was new but not sure if was the one from the first engine build. Took it to pieces and found it completely shot with the outer casing actually cracked. Also the OPRV was jammed open not only with a bit of metal but also tons of silicone gasket sealant. Close inspection of the filter showed a bit of metal present. Looked like a washer or what was left of it.
My advice then is to drop the sump and remove your oil pump. Strip,it down. If it's shot then get an uprated Rob Beere one and follow his instructions as to the pick up and pipe. Also lap in the OPRV and maybe fit a new spring. It's an easy job apart from dropping and replacing the said sump. (Christened my new hydraulic lift - bliss! The filter will have done it's job and your drop in oil pressure should not be a bearing problem as Hugo has stated.
I now have 40 lbs at tickover and off the gauge at 2.000+ :bigrin:
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#6 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Hugo » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:36 pm

I hope you sued him! What would make an oil pump casing crack? I would hazard a guess and say that the pump would have continued to function with a crack - if I were a betting man I would say it was the stuff in the pressure relief valve that caused the pressure drop. Do you think the pump could have cracked from an excess of pressure, due to a blockage somewhere? The mind boggles, but once you hear of RTV silicone in there, anything is possible!
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#7 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by NickJ » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:43 am

Hugo whatever went through the pump caused dramatic damage to the internals which are very heavily scored with chunks taken out of it. I reckon I heard it happen - rather like a spanner hitting a prop shaft. So in addition to the foreign body I had bits of oil pump in the filter and OPRV. Just shows what an important job a filter does! As to the sump gasket seal I would have thought that a competent engine builder would use blue hylomar and not great globs of silicone?
I am ready with my classic car owning lawyer by the way and will put more miles on the engine before I am 100% satisfied that all is well. There's the nagging question as to where the foreign body came from in the first instance?
NickJ
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#8 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Hugo » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:16 am

Nagging question indeed. I don't suppose you found anything you could identify? I'm with you about the silicone - I think I'd be inclined to use Wellseal on the faces of something like that, and maybe a spot of Hylomar on the butt-joints of the seal. Also I'm surprised he didn't leave the ends of the seals slightly proud to push them in snug.
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#9 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Mark Gordon » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:31 am

Here are a couple of photos of the piece of metal that I found on the seat of my relief valve. I have no idea what it could be. Tomorrow, I will be installing the mechanical pressure gauge; I'm hoping that the problem is a faulty sender. I'll report back when I finish.


Image

Image

I forgot to place a ruler next to it for the photos, but it measures 3 mm across its diameter.
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#10 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Hugo » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:52 am

I don't like the look of it. You might be lucky & it might just be a bit of swarf from machining - but machining what though? I can't think of any operation on an engine that would generate swarf like this. Who knows? If it were mine I'd like to know where it came from, but that's probably a tall order. Good luck with the gauge!
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#11 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by JagWaugh » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:23 pm

Mark Gordon wrote:Here are a couple of photos of the piece of metal that I found on the seat of my relief valve. I have no idea what it could be. Tomorrow, I will be installing the mechanical pressure gauge; I'm hoping that the problem is a faulty sender. I'll report back when I finish.
...
I forgot to place a ruler next to it for the photos, but it measures 3 mm across its diameter.
Is the material ferrous, or white metal?

At 3mm across I would be inclined to ask if you were using steel brillo pads for parts cleaning at some point.

If it's ferrous then I'd want to know where it came from, and where the rest of the family is.

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#12 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Mark Gordon » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:29 pm

I don't know if it's ferrous or not; I'll check with a magnet when I get home this evening. I looked at it under an operating microscope (sorry, I can't take a photo with that scope) and it looks much like the curl of metal that comes off of a machine lathe when a piece of metal is turned down. Is it possible that when the engine was rebored, some piece of swarf curled off and dropped down into the block, only to eventually work its way to the relief valve?

And no, Andrew, I've not used any type of steel wool to clean anything other than my white walls when they get bad.
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#13 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by 64etype » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:56 pm

I've cross threaded a screw or two over the years, and the result looked something like that...
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#14 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by JagWaugh » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:37 pm

Mark Gordon wrote: And no, Andrew, I've not used any type of steel wool to clean anything other than my white walls when they get bad.
It seems to be square(ish) in section.
I meant one of those pot scrubber things. They're like steel wool, just much coarser. I thought they were called Brillo pads?

(They're actually pretty good for cleaning a block, or a diff housing, precisely because the bits that do tear off are large enough that you can shift them with compressed air.)

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#15 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Hugo » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:10 pm

Yes, Brillo pads. Is that the kind of swarf you'd get from a rebore? It would be kind of reassuring if that were the case.
I once rebuilt an old AEC diesel that had been lying in the grass for about ten years. New liners, pistons, crank ground & nitrided, new shells, balanced all the conrods & pistons - it sounded just beautiful. Then after a few hundred miles it developed a very light squeak at half engine speed. I decided it had to be coming from the compressor, so I stripped it down and found a strand from a wire brush partially blocking the oilway to the compressor bearing. I was very pleased that I had identified the source of the noise and even more pleased that I was able to fix it at no cost.
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#16 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by PeterCrespin » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:07 am

Check if the little cone filter (ferrous) is still behind the timing chain tensioner. Reboring or regrinding doesn't produce that kind of swarf.
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#17 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by abowie » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:58 am

JagWaugh wrote:
It seems to be square(ish) in section.
Looks like a bit of a helicoil, or as mentioned a bit of stripped thread. If that was wedged in your OP valve it would certainly bugger up your oil pressure.
Andrew.
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#18 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Hugo » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:16 am

Bit small for that? It's only 1/8" dia. Without going back over all the posts, I think the author said his pressure was still way down after removing the mystery object. Maybe its brother is now occupying the same space?
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#19 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Mark Gordon » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:45 pm

Problem solved! I never did figure out what that piece of swarf is, but it is ferrous. I installed the mechanical oil pressure gauge today and it reads a steady 40 lb. I removed the oil filter and adapter plate, disassembled the relief and bypass valves, cleaned everything thoroughly (didn't find any other debris) and was ready to reassemble and install the pressure gauge when I discovered what I believe caused my low reading after my first attempt at removal, cleaning and reinstallation: When I removed the relief valve and bypass valves the first time, I had to put the adapter plate in my woodworking vise so that I could put enough torque on those fittings to remove them. As I was cleaning the adapter today, I noticed that the vise had bent that metal plate on the adapter which the filter rests against. No doubt, it was not making a good seal and I assume that would lead to low pressure to the engine. I carefully bent it back to a flat contour and put everything back together and as stated above, I now have a good pressure and no leaks in the system.

My only complaint is that the gauge that I bought off of Amazon (Sunpro model CP8216) has a bright orange needle which sticks out like a sore thumb on the instrument panel. I tried to remove the bezel so that I could paint the needle white to match the other gauges but the bezel is crimped onto the rim of the gauge and I was afraid that I'd break something or not be able to bend it back around the rim if I removed it. Maybe this winter I'll get up enough courage to try to get it off. But for 17 bucks, I'm happy.


For the most part, the job was pretty straight forward. It took about two hours and the biggest problems were getting the electric sender off of the adapter plate (I had to cut it off and then use an impact wrench to remove the remaining hex "screw") and getting the compression fittings to go onto the ends of the 1/8" nylon tubing (I had to ream the hole in the compression fittings slightly). Another bonus is that the original bulb and its fitting just pressed into the back of the new gauge; I didn't have to change any wiring to connect up the bulb that Sunpro provided.

I want to thank everyone who replied with advice and opinions on my various issues. Without help like this, I doubt that I would still be an E Type owner.
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#20 Re: Oil Pressure

Post by Hugo » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:23 pm

If you had to ream out the compression fitting, it is probably metric 3mm. 1/8" is 3.2mm. Pop rivets are the most fun; 3/16" is 4.8mm, so now we get 4.5mm, 3/16" and 5mm rivets in that order. I deal with metric and Imperial sizes and convert between the two all the time, and it's a damn nuisance. We have that fool Napoleon to thank for it all, him and the EU.
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