Series 1 Seat-Belt fitting, and 'slack' Inertia Reel Belts.

[Gfhug]

Rory, when FDTS made up inertia belts for my FHC on my request they used straps at the fixed central tunnel end rather than stalks. This had a significant advantage for slim people like me in that stalks hold the fixed end too far forward rather than down by my hips. It might be an option for you.
If this is of interest then they still have the drawings.

Geoff

[rfs1957]

I suspect the instructions I had 10 years ago were so poor that I never grasped that I was meant to fit the belts in such a way that they exited through the parcel-shelf rather than through the bulkhead.

But hearing that the retraction issues can be poor with the parcel-shelf exit, I'm not sure what to do next.

I think these drawings and pictures resume the options.

Most belt kits are of this type ; the top version is vertically mounted, and the belt either exits through the parcel shelf or the bulkhead - but in either case there is a 90° corner to negociate ; the lower one is horizontally mounted but exits on the curve of the bulkhead.



In practice, the vertically-mounted shelf-exit type looks like this :





This CMC installation is of that type, and fits the escutcheons to the parcel-shelf.



This is the "wrong" installation that I did :



It's the CMC type of reel but instead of going through the parcel shelf I went straight through the bulkhead, so my belt comes off the reel vertically then immediately does a 90° angle to come out into the cockpit.



This isn't very clever and definitely increases the slop and friction, or the stiction, especially when the hood-bag interferes with the run.



The lower drawing "Straight Pull Off Reel" shows what I feel is a much better solution, and corresponds to the QuikfitSBS set-up that Chris Vine uses, which looks like this from the boot-side - the belt-exits into the cockpit will be in roughly the same position as my "wrong" installation, see above.



In section this looks something like this :



An alternative would be to fit an appropriate Reverse-Wound Retractor under the parcel-shelf, and get this :



which I believe is no good as the geometry of the pull introduces a big vertical component on the shoulder, badly represented in the drawing but see the 80mm dimension as against the 40mm for the alternative.

I've tried to resume what I see as the advantages and inconveniencies of the various approaches.

Perhaps the key points are : 1. does everyone complain about retraction issues with shelf-mounted escutcheons, and 2. is dropping the slot by 40mm to a bulkhead-exit a dangerous compromise of the belt-geometry ?

[Gfhug]

Rory, are you saying FDTS can't provide you with a retractor for your second diagram?
I had long chats with Sue and a couple of visits to get everything just right and they have been so helpful to me that I'm sorry to hear of you having problems.
I would have thought their multi-angle retractor would fit in your third diagram position. It is what I have.
The retractor doesn't need to be in a particular horizontal or vertical angle to work, hence multi-angle.
Have you maybe been asking for a particular retractor and hence told it can't work for you?

Geoff

[rfs1957]

Let's just say that what is currently supplied to many retailers is of the type that forces the belt through the famous 90°across the metal cage.

I am hugely encouraged, Geoff, to hear that you have located reels that can indeed go under the shelf for a horizontal mounting and a straight-pull - have you got some pictures, and have I understood you correctly ?

[Gfhug]

Rory, this is my set up on my FHC, but I would have thought that retractor could be positioned 180 degrees rotated to go under your shelf.

Geoff

[mgcjag]

Hi Rory.....i thought that the way Chris Vines belts are wound on the reel gives the vertical mount and straight pull as your diagram 2.....have a look again at the pictures of his reels fitted in the boot.....one has a large pin holding the reel/rewind mechanism which would retract the belt with a straight pull through the escutcheon

[rfs1957]

Yes, Steve, Chris's kit from Quickbit SBS does indeed come off the top of the roll, although the first picture on his post shows a kit where this is not (apparently ?) the case - perhaps an illustration rather than the actual thing ? I'll PM him for confirmation, if he's not reading our musings.

Geoff's solution for the FHC may indeed be flippable, BUT on the OTS you would then end up with the slot for the belt right bang on the curve between the bulkhead and the parcel shelf which a) makes the escutcheon ugly, sitting on a curve, and b) exacerbates problems with the hood and the hood-bag interfering with the belts.

I think Chris's solution then has my vote, as you can select the height at which you mount it and get the slot right opposite the belt's tangent at the position where the seatbelt is actually worn, since the diameter of the belt-roll diminishes as the belt is withdrawn.

Caveat Emptor, as we say to each other in Montpellier, usually to people buying croissants from Lidl.

[ralphr1780]

Very illustrative drawings Rory, thanks.
I have a set of belts coming from a vw golf, 90° pull off.
My plan is to fit these in the boot as you did, a little bit lower, and to make use of the angled guide which has a plastic molding for smoother slide.
Benefits: easier slide with less chaffing, almost constant 90°, better forces distribution upon strain.
My drawing skills are not as good as yours...

Seatbelt1.jpg (191.68 KiB) Viewed 10410 times

[rfs1957]

Hi Ralf, Your drawings are fine and most of mine were stolen from others anyway.

The guide is a great idea, and of course replicates what the situation is on most cars - about a 135° reversal generally.

I think your method is an excellent compromise, provided that the shelf-anchorage for the guide is beefed-up sufficiently to carry the vertical pull on the bolt in the event of an accident - OEM installations generally seem to use mounting points that are in shear, and rely on chassis mountings that are considerably more robust than our 1960's bean-can structures.

[rfs1957]

Just a bump to say that after some helpful exchanges with QuickfitSBS and FDTS I've re-written the exposé - see above - with new diagrams and pictures.

viewtopic.php?f=3&p=81050#p80910

And I've watered-down some of my judgements - a first.

This - from QFSBS - shows the different types of retractor available :



and a variant on the bulkhead-exit which uses a guide :



My money is still on this approach



but I'd be pleased to get more input from other members.

[chrisvine]

Hi Rory,

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've just got back from holiday so have only just read through all the posts.

I opted for Quickfit SBS mainly because they had installed their kits in numerous E-Types including an OTS - http://www.quickfitsbs.com/gallery_jaguar.php. When I discussed the installation with them, they needed to know where I intended fitting the reels so they could provide the correct 'pull off the reel'.

Therefore the reels in the kit were specifically for mounting on the vertical bulkhead within the boot space and the belt travelling horizontally through the bulkhead. The orientation of the mounting of the reel provided was important because the release/locking mechanism only works at certain angles. Therefore my reel could not be mounted on the underside of the parcel shelf, which I suspect Tony's can.

I mounted mine as high as possible to minimise the force that would be exerted on the shoulder in an impact. I didn't specifically ask about this because this is how they had installed their reels in an OTS (see gallery above).

I tried to mount mine as high and outboard as possible which allowed the single mounting bolt to sit within one of the anti-drumming/strengthening recesses in the bulkhead. In one of your diagrams you mention adding a spacer between the body and the reel bracket housing. I thought about making up some spacers but, because they were mounted in the recesses, any spacers would be needed at the outer edges of the reel rather than were the central bolt is located. Therefore I didn't pursue this but it feels fairly solid.

I did the same as you and removed the belt from the mechanism but, in my case, this was to minimise the vertical height of the slot needed in the bulkhead. It's worth doing but I'd definitely recommend securing the reel with a cable tie until the belt is to be refitted as the reel is fully coiled and if let go will wreck the mechanism.

Regarding the colour ... the red from Quickfit SBS is very red so I would recommend asking them for samples of the red and burgundy before you place any order.

Chris

[ETTony]

To overcome the problem when the hood is down, I have used stout flat bar 5mm x 30mm, bent to enable the reel to be mounted against the vertical section.

Is the bottom of the bar bolted through the bulkhead, Tony?
Your setup is similar to the one Jaguar used with inertia reels in later cars. There is a B+W photo in the link Steve gave to Chris Vine's site http://etype.chrisvine.com/2015/04/fitt ... eat-belts/
My understanding is that the bottom of the much thinner (and quite flexible) Jaguar strap is not fixed to the bulkhead, so under load will be pulled up and forwards from the bulkhead.
Joe

Hi Joe, as i needed heat to bend my flat bar, i decided it was not neccessary to bolt through the vertical b'head.
Once i have repaired two massive speaker holes in that bulkhead, i may well bolt through the b'head.

[rfs1957]

Anyone following this string might like to read it again right from the beginning as I've updated many of the drawings and sections in my earlier posts, and edited the text in the light of what follows.

The modifications shown below were to fit the "Chris-Vine" version of seat-belts refrred to in the earlier posts, that is - with a straight pull through the bulkhead off what are referred to as a "Reverse-Wound" belts.



Pavel at QuickfitSBS can supply these.

The reservations about the shoulder geometry - expressed on the sketch - are misplaced, I've done 6.000km since I fitted these in the spring and can say that they function perfectly, comfortably, and that the geometry is spot-on.

The dimensions shown below ARE ONLY RIGHT FOR MY CAR and are NOT intended to be followed blindly ; they MAY work for yours, but you need to measure and carefully understand what you are doing - and your reels may not be the same as mine. Usual pointless disclaimer.



I already had slots cut in the bulkhead from my earlier installation, and had to re-locate them sideways to get flat surfaces around the main mounting holes, so if they don't look correctly centred in the photograph it's because at that time they were not.

Rely on the dimensions and not on what you can see.

I opted to make 15/10 mm plates 110mm x 25mm both to reinforce that area and to provide threaded inserts for the chrome escutcheon plates that sit on the bulkhead. These are then plug-welded through to make them a permanent fixture.

I also elected to add the 140mm x 30mm x 3mm vertical steel strips, shown in yellow, again plug-welded through the bulkhead, to beef up and spread the load of the seat-belt mounting points.





The mounting bolts for the seat-belts were rendered fixed, see above, by a couple of beads onto the bulkhead - the bolts have special low-profile heads that I think came off some other seat-belt installation, as 7/16 UNF seems to be an industry norm - or is it M11 x 1.25 in fact ?

Of course, ideally, some keen E-Type supplier would get water-jet-cut plates that would incorporate both the reinforcing vertical and the correctly-spaced escutcheon backing plate in one and the same "T" shaped part, but the people who sell the parts never get their necks and backs twisted by actually doing this kind of work.





I always have all my belts fitted with quick-release end-plates (hence the clips) as these then just require eye-bolts screwing into the location holes in the floor, which I prefer - but it means the slots have to cope with the rivet in the corner ; simple bolt-fixing end-plates would be easier in this respect.







The dimensions of these should be worked out to suit your car and your escutcheons, I show them as a source of inspiration for others and not as Gospel.

I spent too long trying to be clever with making the slots as small as possible, I suspect that a simple rectangular slot of 15mm x 65mm would not make the slightest difference to the way the set-up resists a crash.



These are just workshop scribbles, apologies, but all the info is there.





The buckles (still with plastic protection seen here) can be ordered with the Leaper, and make a nice finishing touch - they're quick-release like aeroplane seat-belts, and are just a tad too easy to flip open with a cuff or a passing finger, although this is immediately apparent so not really an issue.



Some people feel that having the reels in the boot limits the luggage space ; I find that since the hinges already require some clearance, the reels make very little difference, and since the HillsAlive tailored luggage as currently sold was based on the dimensions of my own car, you can be sure that their stuff will fit.

[rfs1957]

IMPORTANT !

Something that anyone installing seat-belts into an OTS needs to consider is that because the reels are SO close to the seats, the standard reels actually have way too much belt on them - at least 1 metre of it is quite unnecessary.

This makes the reels fatter than they need be, and can be a nuisance when fitting them onto any kind of trimmed surface - as the belts sometimes won't retract away for that last rotation due to the fat bobbin touching the mounting surface.

If I were doing this again, in the pursuit of perfection I would insist that Pawel and QuickfitSBS shortened the belt on the bobbin by 1 metre ...................

Should make me popular !

[rfs1957]

I forgot to mention the issue of the belts with relation to the hood-bag.

Everyone seems to suffer from retraction issues with the cover in place, the issue is slightly different with my corrected Series 1 shape seats but probably similar.





I got Jack at BAS to take these scallops out of the hood-bag to correspond with the trajectory of the belt, they are more or less invisible as you can see, and they mean the retraction is unaltered.





This might appeal to others getting a re-trim or a new hood, and - once again - I couldn't praise the work that BAS did highly enough, nor their willingness to tweak and innovate.





Getting the belts from behind your shoulder can be a bit of a faff on our cars, and I put a pair of inserts in the right place in the seats, at the shoulder point, pre-trimming (I left a couple of grub-screws in place and can just feel them through the felt with my fingers) so when the time comes I'll make some circa-1962-looking guide to keep the belt more accessible.