Thoughts please on this low milage car

[Kes]

I can't believe what I'm reading here! How on earth can an un-restored 50 year old E type in superb original un-restored condition with cast-iron provenance be compared to the prices achieved by the sale of restored cars in various conditions?

This car is so incredibly rare being an un-restored and fully authenticated E Type. I wonder just how many there are like this left....10, 20........maybe 50 out of say 40,000 E Types remaining? There are any number of tatty older restored E types, poorly restored E Types, perfectly restored E Types and way-over-the-top restored E Types, and they all have one thing in common....they've all been restored.

Perhaps E Type owners don't appreciate originality and authenticity as much as owners of other marques, but if this was a 12 cylinder Ferrari, a DB4 or 5, or even a Lotus Cortina, and being sold for the price of a restored car, it would be snapped up so fast that we would never even know about it.

The last un-restored Lotus Cortina sold 3 years ago for ?150k, or 3 times the price of a top restored car. That sort of ratio puts this E Type at ?300k or so.

That's more like it!!!

But it's not an Aston or a Ferrari is it....and the Lotus Cortina presumably had a racing pedigree.

[MarkE]

The Lotus Cortina that sold was and is a bog standard road car. The ex-works race cars are double that again at ?300k plus, complete with their non-original engines, gearboxes, suspension, steering......and in a couple of cases, shell. But as Jim Clark or Sir John Whitmore sat in the car with the same registration number, the price hits the roof.

Now there I would agree that prices are daft!

I guess that to some it doesn't matter if a car is 'original' or not, or if it's history can be traced back to day 1. But for many with an interest in classic cars getting a car as close to how it came out of the factory is the holy grail. The vast majority can only restore a car back to some sort of original specification, as I have done, but the result isn't quite right due to the materials used and indeed the care taken to paint and build compared to a mass-produced car.

But just put a factory original car alongside a group of perfectly restored cars at a show and I'll guarantee that the crowd will gather around the original one.

I certainly can't see why this car can't be driven 'like an E Type' or has to be consigned to a museum. For sure, whoever buys it will probably use it sparingly, but again, the vast majority of us also do that. If our cars had spent all their lives being driven just an average annual mileage, they would all be on 500,000 miles plus by now.

This car just needs a few gallons of waxoil and protection from our damp and salty winter and, used sensibly, will go on for another 50 years. It will always be something very special to folks like me who appreciate originality and provenance, and there are a lot of us about!

[PeterCrespin]

Yes, it's a very nice car and I totally 'get' the unrestored thing. It's just that since it can never be totally satisfied - just as on this car there are non-original parts - it boils down to collector versus normal user. You can't be partly a virgin, so once the exhaust, service items and trim parts have been altered as on that car, it's not the 100% deal anymore, just amongst the closest we can still find today.

Years ago, a batch of original Triumph motorbikes were found still in their crates. The sadness was that even unpacking one would drop the value, let alone ride it, which seems rather ghoulish and appeals to a totally different mindset to the 'wear it out' brigade. You can either preserve something or you can use it and accumulate the full gamut of journies and memories of doing so. You cannot do both, no matter how fat your wallet, unless you buy vehicles two at a time I suppose and only use one. I'm glad there are other people happy to do the preserving while I do the using. Methinks the richer person will have the poorer time of it.

I did 250 miles of great country road driving in my 'normal' OTS yesterday, including about fifty in rain (yes, windscreen wiping constitutes normal use). I would never explore the limits in a collector car that had cost me five times as much and I don't believe any eventual purchaser will use it normally, rain or shine either even if money is no object. The seat foam wouldn't survive my lard-a**e for a start, and I assume the steering wheel fifty year old fish glue is only one pull away from cracking.

If someone bought that car and enjoyed it in normal driving the same as my other Es have to put up with, I guarantee in five years time it wouldn't look as nice as it does now. At that time, despite even longer proven provenance and records and enhanced 'patina', the collectors would sniff at the deterioration. It's a lovely time-warp in similar condition to my MkIX complete with crayon marks, tools, original trim and paint throughout etc. But unlike the saloon it is now a victim of its own value. We need a few good reference cars and they deserve a higher price than artificial over-restorations, but there's a sad side to them. RIP.

Pete

[Dave K]

Very interesting comments on my FHC. Its not often I comment on my own Forum about cars I have nor do I use the Forum promote my business which some say I should. I just want a forum where people can have open chat about E-types or anything else of mechanical interest.

However when people make un-realistic remarks about cars I have or any other dealer for that matter I have to respond.

?30k? Weird Colour panted wheels? and wrong Rad? Please before you attempt to bring the value of a car like this one down please get the facts right.

This actual car which I sourced from one of the main Judges at Pebble Beach and he confirms that it was used for many years prior to the concors as a guide for the Judges to use as a reference for the correct detail of the restored cars. It is also in the Quaile magazine and mention as one of the most original if not the most original cars left.

As for the colour Opalescent Dark Blue with Red interior is in most peoples opinion one of the best combinations you can get. The painted Wires are in fact Chrome. The radiator is original and the engine compartment is not bling because thats what makes it original.

Whats more I have had trade offers far in excess of the prices mention in this thread.

If the colour is not to someones taste or they don't like the markings on the bulkhead that is their choice. But that doesn't mean they have to devalue the car on that basis.

The rarity of unrestored cars or cars with 100% good Coventry metal are becoming ever more value & I put a lot effort ensuring that I find them.

I would also like to ad that you will not see cars appear on my website that have come straight out of an auction. I like to get the hard to find cars.

Keep your eyes posted as one of the top Jaguar Mags will running a story on this car next month.

I would to thank those who have appreciated the car for what it is even though they may like a modified car to use themselves.

"Paint work looks dull, weird colour, painted wires? original style rad with later carb linkage.

So to straighten the facts out, above is what I wrote I never said it was the wrong rad I pointed out that it was the right original rad with later style linkage purely facts that anyone can see from the photo.

The next fact is the thread is tittled "Thoughts please on this low mileage car" so I gave him my thoughts. You or some others might not like my opinion but you never asked the question Matt did. The next option is to remove the thread completely.

Weird colour? from the photos it looks a sort of purple which is why I made the comment. The chrome wheels look dull so I thought they were painted, only commenting on the photos as I saw them.
Both were options from the factory. I know someone who has a 3.8 FHC that is purple.

I've obviously rattled your cage along with Viper GTS you must feel a bit insecure in the price otherwise you wouldn't be so vociferous in your replies. No one has to justify making money it's what makes the world go round, if Matt doesn't buy it as you have already said you could make more money selling it to the trade, which seems a bit odd but I guess your giving Joe Public a crack at the car which is fair enough.
Good luck.

Dave

[harryetype]

At no point did I suggest I could make more money in the trade over what Matt may or may not have offered. Peoples opinions are fine, I don't have a problem with that. Its when people try and down value something by a ridiculous amount when its not correct or justified.

As for removing the thread that wouldn't be fair to the members and I don't intend to start controlling the market or people views by doing so.

Carb linkage is also correct for the year.

[Heuer]

The only people who have contributed to this thread and who have actually seen the car in the metal are Harry and Lee it would appear. The rest of us are basing our opinions on a few (low resolution) photos which is hardly fair.
Please keep the discussion revolving around the condition and stop carping about whether the car represents 'value for money'. If anyone feels inclined to do so please start by pointing to a similar car for less!

[Kes]

The only people who have contributed to this thread and who have actually seen the car in the metal are Harry and Lee it would appear. The rest of us are basing our opinions on a few (low resolution) photos which is hardly fair.
Please keep the discussion revolving around the condition and stop carping about whether the car represents 'value for money'. If anyone feels inclined to do so please start by pointing to a similar car for less!

Good idea. Lets keep the thread on topic otherwise, before we know it we'll have photos of Colin Chapman stood next to a Lotus!

[265bhp]

Well I went to see the car over Christmas and was welcomed warmly by Harry, i needed to pore over the car to build up research data for my own project....he has a great set up, was generously relaxed about me taking my time and photographs...generally very helpful..and i beleive a real enthusiast.........it's a gorgeous specimen and has that unmistakable aroma of old car, leather is beautifully worn in and with a delicate amount of patina..the fact that it has the wax crayon marks is bonkers and brilliant..to preserve that moment of history when a human hand marked the car is priceless...I wish I could buy that kind of magic...as for the price, it is what it is...you either buy it or you don't.....and having been to Essen again this last weekend, which although it most certainly has the reputation for potty prices...it proves with the number of sold markers that all sorts of people value and appreciate these wonderful old cars....the thing about Essen is the amount of over restored cars, which whilst objects beautifully crafted, simply do not have the feel of history..I saw many etypes and 911's..my other interest..but of all the cars there it was the carefully restored cars or original cars that were the most appealing

I spent an hour or more looking and sitting in the car....only took about 20 or 30 pictures...could easily go back and do it all again...Perhaps I should before it goes....

Regards
Jonathan

[38E]

The only people who have contributed to this thread and who have actually seen the car in the metal are Harry and Lee it would appear. The rest of us are basing our opinions on a few (low resolution) photos which is hardly fair.
Please keep the discussion revolving around the condition

OK, but the photos are still clear enough to show plenty of details.

I think that if one is going to represent a car as being a perfectly original and un-molested example of the marque, especially when citing the opinion of people such as Pebble Beach concours judges, the car had better stand up to the closest scrutiny from the rest of us.

So another look over the photos reveals numerous details, albeit relatively minor, that should be fixed before presenting that car as original. A more obvious one, besides the easily corrected use of 4.2 resonators, is the screws to securing the tailgate trim which had obviously come adrift at some point, a quick bodge someone did there.

The car was shown to be delivered with a front Amco bar, which has since been removed but unfortunately, the replacement overriders have been installed minus the aluminum spacers which hold the bumper straight, so the bumper droops. A common fault on restored cars too. One of the major classic car magazines even showed a front view of such a car on their front cover as an example of a pristine restoration.

Interestingly, the delivery photo shows the car without the wing mirror and radio aerial which are evident in the later photos indicating that these were aftermarket items rather than being factory installed items as many people think.

I'm not trying to trash the car by any means -it's obviously a remarkable find and worth a premium. But if it was mine, I'd have fixed all these minor details before publicizing it.

Keep your eyes posted as one of the top Jaguar Mags will running a story on this car next month.

Going to be very interesting to read what they say.

[timhum]

I looked at the car whilst mine was at EType UK for its annual service etc.
and was bowled over by it, a true timewarp specimen; it felt like I'd been taken back 50 years. I'd love to buy it but the paper round is not as lucrative as it used to be
Tim

[harryetype]

Well I'm pleased we're back on track.

There are various imperfections with the car which I'm happy to share as I don't wish to hide them. I would actually welcome other peoples opinions on this.

There is a imperfection in the paint on the passenger door where the original owner had his company logo stuck. There are original photo's showing the car with this and there is even an unused sticker in the history file. This is a nice part of its history and whilst it might not be to everyones taste once I repaint it it cant be undone.

The drivers side has been painted and not to the highest standard, I believe this has been pointed out to any potential buyer.

Whilst there is mention in Anders Ditlev Clausager book that later 3.8's may have been fitted with short resonators as fitted to 4.2 cars this would not have been the case for a 62 car. Possible a mistake or owners choice at some point in its history. The screws in the rear panel are difficault to deal with as there shouldn't be any there.

One of the cars three owners clearly shared my opinion on the front amco bar and removed it as it ruins the lines (this is only personal taste).

Many enthusiasts have have viewed this car to satisfy their own interest and most would advise to leave it alone and a few have suggested that I repaint the car to make it perfect. I would leave this decision to any buyer as it cant be reversed once done.

I would welcome anyone who wants to view the car out of interest to come down.

I also have a unrestored 1964 3.8 Roadster on its way which does have the short resonators and I believe they are correct for year. Opalescent Dark Green with Suede interior and even the foot wells have original carpets and they are intact. The car has spent the last 30 years in a museum and unlike most cars stored this way it has been mechanically maintained.

I even drove the car to super car Sunday in Topanger California only last Sunday.

It is now on its way back to the UK and I will post it up when its arrives.

[PeterCrespin]

Very fair answer Harry and having looked through your web site stock I actually think the old girl looks something of a bargain! :-)

I thought I saw it referred to as a 62 and you've confirmed it, but how come? As you know, the UK convention is to refer to the car by the year it was registered and the US convention is to date it by Model Year. This is a 63 on both counts. The US title must say 63 surely?

My stolen OTS was built in December 68 but no way could I call it a 68. I've had others with similar early year registrations to yours and again no way could I make them look older unless I started referring to a factory date in the Heritage Certificate. Seems a bit odd that to anybody in any country the car is a 63 for fifty years until or unless someone in Mahwah or Coventry does a production trace? Are all your car's ages based purely on date of manufacture and therefore all dating that may have been used throughout the car's life is discarded? I'm sure Mr Lynn didn't regard himself as buying a 62 in March 63 or whenever it was.

Pete

[Heuer]

I thought I saw it referred to as a 62 and you've confirmed it, but how come? As you know, the UK convention is to refer to the car by the year it was registered and the US convention is to date it by Model Year. This is a 63 on both counts. The US title must say 63 surely?

Caught between a rock and a hard place there Pete with an early E-Type. As we know the specification was changed weekly as Jaguar sought to resolve problems (I counted over 200 changes to the 3.8 in three years) so if you describe '62 build car as a '63 you get even more comments regarding originality as it certainly won't be the same as one built in that year.

My stolen OTS was built in December 68 but no way could I call it a 68.

Simple. Give it back and steal and earlier car

[harryetype]

Good point Pete

The car was manufactured 16th November 1962. We would always refer to it as the year of manufacture. It has been common in years gone by for a collector to buy a new car and have it delivered unregistered. I know of a
E-type Commemorative bought in 1974 and registered in 1984. so that car is still a 74 car not a 84.

In the UK we don't have to pay for Road Fund Licence on anything pre 74. Our department of transport will go by the year of Manufacture to ascertain if it qualifies or not.

[GSR 54D]

Harry; my opinion on the car is that imperfections should be left and dealt with by the future owner. As you say it's primarily original and untouched so quite unique.
As to it's price tag leave it where it is :) probably helps keep mine in the clouds!
You have clarified your description and shown to be comfortable with it which makes me feel it's the genuine article you say. We are all cynic in that car dealer descriptions are more often overrating their products.

As to Steve McCarthys (vikla) editorial (partly mentioned in this thread) I agree with his points regarding general dealers and valuations etc. In fact I know dealer price tags are often 30%+ higher than what they have paid for the car, that's expected, they want and need to make as much money as they can.. it's business.

Dave K; hats off to you, you said what you thought and felt and not always easy when your replies are from
1: Forum "Moderator" backed up 11 minutes later by
2: Forum "Administrator" and then by
3: Forum "Site Admin" (Harry) and also
4: ViperGTS Car dealer/salesman?

Matt (365boy); If you owned this unique time warp car would you actually use it as much as a less significant restored car in fear of reducing it's value? I use my car a lot less than I expected because of it's relatively good condition and my constant concern leaving it unattended in public places! But I guess you know what I mean because you have a pristine Porsche 356.

John H.

[Heuer]

Just so everyone is clear, ViperGTS is Lee Fulford, Harry's brother but not directly involved in the E Type UK business other than using Harry's facilities to restore his car. :D . We rarely have to moderate anything other than spam and Dave Kerr is a well respected member of the E-Type community and Forum so his considered views are welcome and encouraged.

Please keep the discussion revolving around the condition and stop carping about whether the car represents 'value for money'. If anyone feels inclined to do so please start by pointing to a similar car for less!

Hoisted on my own petard I see this is on eBay:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/281091203338?cl ... om/d6xe9gl[/img]

"Up for sale rare find Jaguar E type 1962 coupe!!! Last owner since 1965!!! The car was found in the garage after 30 plus years of storage!!! This car is an early 1962 with some features of the flat floor e type!! It is fairly complete and it comes with 3.8L matching engine block, original transmission, triple carburetors and toggle switches!!! The car needs complete restoration but it has an excellent base to restore!!! These early e types are getting truly hard to find and prices are going up in the sky on restored example!! Take your chance to own it at the right moment for a very fair price!!"


A bit of T-Cut should restore the shine. I understand the exclamation marks are all original as well

[MarkE]

Dave K; hats off to you, you said what you thought and felt and not always easy when your replies are from
1: Forum "Moderator" backed up 11 minutes later by
2: Forum "Administrator" and then by
3: Forum "Site Admin" (Harry) and also
4: ViperGTS Car dealer/salesman?

John H.

I hate to wreck your big brother conspiracy theory John H, but my comments were in response to Steve putting up prices from a magazine by way of comparison to the price being asked for this car. My point in the response was that such a rare car, one of a tiny minority of original cars, cannot be compared with such results, as those results comprise cars that have been restored to varying standards.

My comments were an attempt to put the other side of valuing this sort of car, nothing more. I have re-read all the contributions on this topic and I must say that quite a few are pretty bloody rude about another member's car. Just goes to show what a liberal bunch run the show, eh?

[Dave K]

At no point did I suggest I could make more money in the trade over what Matt may or may not have offered. Peoples opinions are fine, I don't have a problem with that. Its when people try and down value something by a ridiculous amount when its not correct or justified.

As for removing the thread that wouldn't be fair to the members and I don't intend to start controlling the market or people views by doing so.

Carb linkage is also correct for the year.

"Whats more I have had trade offers far in excess of the prices mention in this thread."

Sorry I misread that to mean you have trade offers for more than the ?130K Matt indicated the car was for sale for.

For the third time, I never said the carb linkage was wrong I just commented on it along with the original style rad.
End of conversation as far as I'm concerned.

Dave

[vikla]

I'm really enjoying this thread. Can't beat a good discussion.

Just a couple of points about my earlier post with 'guide' values which I pointed out involve averaging out prices.

Firstly I was very careful not to mention or even try to put a value on Harry's fine machine. I haven't seen it and know that in the flesh cars can be be quite different from what photos initially portray, both good and bad.

Secondly my main point was that there is no 'one' price for any particular car. It's all about the individual buyer and the individual seller and their approach to what they both think is 'value'.
For instance I have met various people saying things like their car is worth ?xxK. This is meaningless to me unless they specify how they will be selling it. There are are only 3 routes - private sale, at auction, or sell to a dealer. In all cases they will receive less than a dealer will ask for it. I met someone last year who was trying to sell his excellent E-type privately for ?100k, but when I discussed it with him he was basing his price on what a dealer would ask. My view was that he would be disappointed.

Likewise with car insurance valuations and some people thinking they could sell their car for that money. As a matter of interest does anyone know how the car clubs arrive at their figures, which I assume are based on buying a similar car from a dealer. Do they compile their own price guides?

Harry's car is pretty unique so its value is bound to be beyond any 'guide' prices. It helps as well that E-Type UK is highly specialist single model restorer and seller, not just a 'dealer'.
By the way do I spot the asking price has been reduced to ?120K. It's beginning to look like a bargain now - look at this similar car from a 'dealer' down the road http://www.peterjarvis.net/index.php?pa ... &Itemid=72

[Heuer]

This was a car I lusted after when it was on eBay a few years ago: http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2007 Bidding got up to $100,000 but the car was withdrawn before the auction ended. I think it then went on to sell well above that figure at a US classic motor auction.