My S3 has failed its MoT as there is not enough braking force from the mechanism - practically none. There is no travel left on the adjuster as far asi can tell (who decided to hide it in the middle of the car?)
I suspect the pads will need replacing, but I haven't been able to work out how to remove the rear seat to get to the access panels - the handbook just says 'remove the seat squab'. Can anyone help with a few pointers please?
It also looks like any work on the handbrake pads will require the rear subframe to be dropped - is this correct?
Steve
Handbrake MoT fail
#2
It is possible to replace handbrake pads without removing the IRS but you wont have much skin left on your knuckles when its done.
The rear seat squab lifts and the seat back is held in place by 2 1/2" nuts to release it and and there are two steel access panels with self tapping screws, remove those which will reveal the rear calipers and you can then see the handbrake mechanisms.
If you have a 2+2 then lift the rear seat back up to the top and remove the vinyl covered ply board which should reveal another access panel if your car has one. Many owners cut out panels here but originally there was just a recessed are of the tunnel. If there is an access panel fitted remove that and then you can clearly see the condition of the handbrake pads. If so remove the 4No 7/16 bolts and take out the seat back, its heavy so be careful taking it out.
With access from the back and above it is possible to remove the handbrake mechanisms and renew the pads and make sure the compensator is free and greased well and adjust to suit.
Good luck, wear some gloves
:D
The rear seat squab lifts and the seat back is held in place by 2 1/2" nuts to release it and and there are two steel access panels with self tapping screws, remove those which will reveal the rear calipers and you can then see the handbrake mechanisms.
If you have a 2+2 then lift the rear seat back up to the top and remove the vinyl covered ply board which should reveal another access panel if your car has one. Many owners cut out panels here but originally there was just a recessed are of the tunnel. If there is an access panel fitted remove that and then you can clearly see the condition of the handbrake pads. If so remove the 4No 7/16 bolts and take out the seat back, its heavy so be careful taking it out.
With access from the back and above it is possible to remove the handbrake mechanisms and renew the pads and make sure the compensator is free and greased well and adjust to suit.
Good luck, wear some gloves
:D
64 S1 4.2 OTS 1E10012 73 S3 2+2 manual 2013 V6 F type OTS
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#3
Thanks Ian. Very clear instructions - I didn't want to start unbolting things at random, and couldn't find anything in the workshop manual or the user manual. I'll have a good look tomorrow (assuming it is too wet to go to the classic show at Maldon).
If the 3rd hatch is there I may have a chance, but otherwise it'll need to go to a garage as getting the subframe out is not easy in the lockup.
Steve
If the 3rd hatch is there I may have a chance, but otherwise it'll need to go to a garage as getting the subframe out is not easy in the lockup.
Steve
Steve
1973 S3 v12 2+2 1S52113BW
1973 S3 v12 2+2 1S52113BW
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#4
If there isnt a top access panel and removing the IRS would be a mission (and it is harder on S3's as there is less space to get at the front mounting bolts compared to S1's, then you could consider carefully cutting out an access panel on top yourself but make sure that if you do,... that you cut it at the base of the recess so that a new access cover has something to screw to. Here is a picture of mine that a PO did quite well.
This is what the rear calipers and handbrake parts look like when on the IRS and also when off the car
If you have a 2 post lift and a gearbox lift, As shown above) taking out the IRS can be quite easy, if not its one hell of a struggle.
This is what the rear calipers and handbrake parts look like when on the IRS and also when off the car
If you have a 2 post lift and a gearbox lift, As shown above) taking out the IRS can be quite easy, if not its one hell of a struggle.
64 S1 4.2 OTS 1E10012 73 S3 2+2 manual 2013 V6 F type OTS
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#5 Series 3 Handbrake my Experience
When I rebuilt my series 3 OTS last year I had the IRS out so replacing the pads was of course easy. I had also had the callipers and the hand brake mechanism rebuilt. When everything was back in I was very dismayed to find that the handbrake was still pretty much useless. Eventually I realised that the new cable was the problem and that this did not allow enough travel and the mechanism was bottoming out against the cable yoke before force was being applied to the pads against the calipers. This was despite adjusting the mechanism. This is also not easy once everything was back in situ. The solution was to remove the cable (easy) and cut the yoke in half allowing the necessary extra travel. Now this works great.
If you search here and on Jag Lovers there are lots of some other suggestions about how to modify the mechanism including cutting off the mechanism post and welding a small piece of tube with apparently great results. I wasn't brave enough to do this so stuck with the mechanism as designed.
It is also possible to purchase and alternative mechanism which replaces the calliper mechanism with a very neat twin small boden cables. I think this can also be installed with the IRS in situ. Of course this does require good pads although I believe these are seldom the problem. Good luck!
If you search here and on Jag Lovers there are lots of some other suggestions about how to modify the mechanism including cutting off the mechanism post and welding a small piece of tube with apparently great results. I wasn't brave enough to do this so stuck with the mechanism as designed.
It is also possible to purchase and alternative mechanism which replaces the calliper mechanism with a very neat twin small boden cables. I think this can also be installed with the IRS in situ. Of course this does require good pads although I believe these are seldom the problem. Good luck!
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#6
When I had the XJ SIII I hated the hand brakes.
I spend hours under the car trying to replace the pads.
They worked for a week or so and then they were worn out.
Next time I dropped the rear end. Quite simple, but I had to cut the non standard exhaust so it needed to be welded after the quite simple change of pads. (As a bonus the brake fluid got flushed as the brakes needed to be bleeded again)
On the E, I've had the IRS out and rebuilt it and after changing the pads they work perfectly. Once you know how they work and manage to get the brass forks that hold the pads apart it is quite simple. When I have to change the pads again, I might give it a go from underneath armed with mirrors on a stick but I suspect it will be a IRS out
I spend hours under the car trying to replace the pads.
They worked for a week or so and then they were worn out.
Next time I dropped the rear end. Quite simple, but I had to cut the non standard exhaust so it needed to be welded after the quite simple change of pads. (As a bonus the brake fluid got flushed as the brakes needed to be bleeded again)
On the E, I've had the IRS out and rebuilt it and after changing the pads they work perfectly. Once you know how they work and manage to get the brass forks that hold the pads apart it is quite simple. When I have to change the pads again, I might give it a go from underneath armed with mirrors on a stick but I suspect it will be a IRS out
Stefan
Sydney Australia
1963 3.8 OTS
Sydney Australia
1963 3.8 OTS
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#7
Hi Steve,
Handbrake issues come in several forms on the E-type. Here are some of them;
1. The hand brake pads can break up and come away from the backing. This seems to be a problem with the new brake pads and is well reported. I had three sets fail on me before I finally managed to get some NOS pads, made by GirLoc (Australian branch of Lockheed Girling). The problem here is that when you buy new ones there is a chance you will get a dodgy set. Try to get some branded ones, I believe There were some Green Stuff ones at one point. I have no idea if they are OK, but they would definitely not be the same as mine, which came in plain white boxes from different suppliers.
2. The Self-Adjusters wear and will not click over (as discussed in a previous response). You can rebuild the adjusters, which are built into the calipers, it?s a little fiddly but can be done. It does compensate for wearing pads, but they really shouldn?t wear much. I certainly wouldn?t recommend the handbrake ever be used to stop the car if you want to avoid the pad break up as discussed above and the brass springs should pull the pads away from the discs when the brake is released. I rebuilt mine during the IRS rebuild, but still only just got the self adjusters to click over with the unit still out of the car.
3. The Brass springs. Designed to pull the pads from the discs when not applied, these can lose their tension and fail to pull the pads off the discs. When I investigated my problems, this appeared to have contributed to the break-up of the pads, if they aren?t pulled fully away, they constantly drag. When I checked with the third set of pads, the pad in the position which had failed most times seemed to be still in contact with the disc. Careful replacement of the brass springs and bending them slightly to give even release of all pads seems to have helped.
4. The cable length. Specifically the outer cable length, the system has similarities to a bicycle brake set up, but the linkage has to travel quite some distance to pull the pads in the small amount required. What can happen is that the cable, even when fully adjusted, runs out of travel. This problem led to one of the Jaguar Clubs in the UK (can?t remember which) releasing a cable which had a greater difference in the length of the inner vs the outer cable, allowing considerably more pull. When I was investigating my initial hand brake issues, I had exactly the same problem as you describe. Being in Australia, with a roadworthy inspection (equivalent to MOT) booked the next day, I replicated the re-designed cable by carefully cutting 4-5 twists of the outer cable using a Dremel and tiny grinding wheel. It?s awkward and you rn the risk of damaging the inner cable if not careful but it can be achieved and I succeeded. Voila, the handbrake worked (at least until the next pad failure). See below, which was poached from another thread (and I have forgotten who took the photo - my apologies!):
Finally, after all the above work I got a functional handbrake which has worked for some time now. The first work was done with the suspension out (during restoration), whilst the first pads separated before I even installed them. The cable modification was carried out by removing the exhaust, heat-shield and cable from the car (IRS stayed in) and was carried out in one evening, whilst the first failed pad led to me dropping the IRS from the car (I had other work that needed doing too). The most recent and hopefully final pad failure was repaired by removing the calipers from the car with the IRS still fitted. It can be achieved and I don?t have the extra holes above the suspension. I too have a Series 3 2+2 FHC car. You have to access from the front removable panels, remove the pins and detach the cable, then take the calipers out by twisting them and taking them over the axle and dropping them out behind the axle. When refitting you can do several trial fits of the brass springs and modify them until they pull all pads from the discs when not applied. It?s a pain, but easier than dropping the IRS, which I have now done several times.
Some further pointers. I am not sure whether the SNG mod can be carried out without dropping the IRS ? the key is whether you can access the bolts securing the linkage. Unfortunately, the captive nots are not very secure in the cage and a rusted nut can actually deform the cage sufficiently that the nut and bolt spin and you have to remove the IRS ? ask me how I know!
All in all the SNG mod is the way I would go now, if I had the IRS off the car. However, modifying the cable can also work and solved some of my problems ? the ones sounding similar to your own.
See also:
http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0
Hope all this helps,
Simon.
Handbrake issues come in several forms on the E-type. Here are some of them;
1. The hand brake pads can break up and come away from the backing. This seems to be a problem with the new brake pads and is well reported. I had three sets fail on me before I finally managed to get some NOS pads, made by GirLoc (Australian branch of Lockheed Girling). The problem here is that when you buy new ones there is a chance you will get a dodgy set. Try to get some branded ones, I believe There were some Green Stuff ones at one point. I have no idea if they are OK, but they would definitely not be the same as mine, which came in plain white boxes from different suppliers.
2. The Self-Adjusters wear and will not click over (as discussed in a previous response). You can rebuild the adjusters, which are built into the calipers, it?s a little fiddly but can be done. It does compensate for wearing pads, but they really shouldn?t wear much. I certainly wouldn?t recommend the handbrake ever be used to stop the car if you want to avoid the pad break up as discussed above and the brass springs should pull the pads away from the discs when the brake is released. I rebuilt mine during the IRS rebuild, but still only just got the self adjusters to click over with the unit still out of the car.
3. The Brass springs. Designed to pull the pads from the discs when not applied, these can lose their tension and fail to pull the pads off the discs. When I investigated my problems, this appeared to have contributed to the break-up of the pads, if they aren?t pulled fully away, they constantly drag. When I checked with the third set of pads, the pad in the position which had failed most times seemed to be still in contact with the disc. Careful replacement of the brass springs and bending them slightly to give even release of all pads seems to have helped.
4. The cable length. Specifically the outer cable length, the system has similarities to a bicycle brake set up, but the linkage has to travel quite some distance to pull the pads in the small amount required. What can happen is that the cable, even when fully adjusted, runs out of travel. This problem led to one of the Jaguar Clubs in the UK (can?t remember which) releasing a cable which had a greater difference in the length of the inner vs the outer cable, allowing considerably more pull. When I was investigating my initial hand brake issues, I had exactly the same problem as you describe. Being in Australia, with a roadworthy inspection (equivalent to MOT) booked the next day, I replicated the re-designed cable by carefully cutting 4-5 twists of the outer cable using a Dremel and tiny grinding wheel. It?s awkward and you rn the risk of damaging the inner cable if not careful but it can be achieved and I succeeded. Voila, the handbrake worked (at least until the next pad failure). See below, which was poached from another thread (and I have forgotten who took the photo - my apologies!):
Finally, after all the above work I got a functional handbrake which has worked for some time now. The first work was done with the suspension out (during restoration), whilst the first pads separated before I even installed them. The cable modification was carried out by removing the exhaust, heat-shield and cable from the car (IRS stayed in) and was carried out in one evening, whilst the first failed pad led to me dropping the IRS from the car (I had other work that needed doing too). The most recent and hopefully final pad failure was repaired by removing the calipers from the car with the IRS still fitted. It can be achieved and I don?t have the extra holes above the suspension. I too have a Series 3 2+2 FHC car. You have to access from the front removable panels, remove the pins and detach the cable, then take the calipers out by twisting them and taking them over the axle and dropping them out behind the axle. When refitting you can do several trial fits of the brass springs and modify them until they pull all pads from the discs when not applied. It?s a pain, but easier than dropping the IRS, which I have now done several times.
Some further pointers. I am not sure whether the SNG mod can be carried out without dropping the IRS ? the key is whether you can access the bolts securing the linkage. Unfortunately, the captive nots are not very secure in the cage and a rusted nut can actually deform the cage sufficiently that the nut and bolt spin and you have to remove the IRS ? ask me how I know!
All in all the SNG mod is the way I would go now, if I had the IRS off the car. However, modifying the cable can also work and solved some of my problems ? the ones sounding similar to your own.
See also:
http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0
Hope all this helps,
Simon.
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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#8
The SNGB linkage can easily be fitted to the car without taking the IRS out - at least it can on my S1, not sure about 2+2 or S3 models. Just jack up the rear end and you're good to go (axle stands as well of course but no need even to remove a wheel) . But if the captive nuts are seized, then as Simon says you may have to drop the ITS to address that issue.
John '62 S1 OTS (now sold)
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#9
I have taken the rear seats out and the good news is that an earlier owner has put an access panel in. Removing all three hatches, I can see that the problem is that the offside handbrake has only one pad - the inboard one is missing. The other pads look to have enough wear left, but I'll change all of them as a precaution.
interior
offside - missing pad
nearside - plenty pad left
interior
offside - missing pad
nearside - plenty pad left
Steve
1973 S3 v12 2+2 1S52113BW
1973 S3 v12 2+2 1S52113BW
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#10
I now have a car with an MOT pass. I took it to the garage to get the work done - it took them 3 hours to change the pads through the access hatches.
Fingers crossed that it will last a while!
Steve
Fingers crossed that it will last a while!
Steve
Steve
1973 S3 v12 2+2 1S52113BW
1973 S3 v12 2+2 1S52113BW
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#11
Update: the handbrake failed to MoT again this year, so I have now done the modification to the handbrake mechanism that sleeves the pivot mechanism rather than it being solidly fixed.
The brake certainly seems to work better now.
Steve
The brake certainly seems to work better now.
Steve
Steve
1973 S3 v12 2+2 1S52113BW
1973 S3 v12 2+2 1S52113BW
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PeterCrespin
- Posts: 4561
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#12
Note that in theory at least, handbrake pads need never wear out.
The handbrake should be applied when stationary with the footbrake applied. It should be released likewise. Therefore, to all intents and purposes there need never be any significant rubbing friction, which is what wears pads out. Static clamping does not really abrade the friction material.
The handbrake should be applied when stationary with the footbrake applied. It should be released likewise. Therefore, to all intents and purposes there need never be any significant rubbing friction, which is what wears pads out. Static clamping does not really abrade the friction material.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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Gfhug
- Posts: 3628
- Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:08 pm
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#13
But, Peter, how are we supposed to impress the girls with our handbrake turns? 
S2 FHC Light Blue
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration
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#14
Peter
I agree with your observation, but in my case I had two problems:
1) one of the pads had fallen off and
2) even when replaced, there was only just enough mobpvenent in the mechanism to scrape through the MoT.
I had thought that this would be enough to get me through the following year, but I was wrong, even though the handbrake was only aploied when stationary.
Steve
I agree with your observation, but in my case I had two problems:
1) one of the pads had fallen off and
2) even when replaced, there was only just enough mobpvenent in the mechanism to scrape through the MoT.
I had thought that this would be enough to get me through the following year, but I was wrong, even though the handbrake was only aploied when stationary.
Steve
Steve
1973 S3 v12 2+2 1S52113BW
1973 S3 v12 2+2 1S52113BW
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