Series 2 aesthetics

[Heuer]

Peter

Have you thought of changing the resonator's to an S1 style. Would improve the look even further IMHO.

[Peter Harrison]

Hi David,

Many thanks for your reply to my first ever post! I have thought about replacing the resonators, however the first activity on my mind (as you might have noticed) is to level them. I try hard not to become too obsessive as this can become more corrosive than gritted roads. Prior to buying in 2010 and after having researched E-types (and talked to my expert Malcolm Collinson) it was clear that the series 2 was right for me. Reverse engineering to a hybrid form doesn't particularly appeal to me. As has been said above, if you prefer the series 1, buy one.

Regards, Peter.

[Heuer]

Welcome to the Forum Peter!

I know this picture is at the start of the thread but Pete Crespin's S2 with S1 resonators does look good:


As regards levelling the pipes it can be a real pain exaggerated on the S2 because of the splayed tips. Pete also got rid of the stainless steel panel and chrome light scallops I believe.

[elgrosso]

Pete Crespin has converted the rear of his S2 to eliminate the splayed exhaust pipe's, the alloy panel, square number plate and improved the rear lights:

I just took time this week end to disassemble the rear lights to get a better idea, even if I don't have the lotus lights yet, seems pretty rare to find.

But there are few things I don't get:
Are the lotus lights smaller than the e-type ones?
I can't see how to get the nice and smooth rendering of Peter's car. Do you have a side picture of your car Peter?
Maybe your body was modified, for me it's not obvious on the picture.
It seems I'll have to cut/modify the original brackets to be able to mount them flush. And even here, the lights won't be really "perpendicular" to the shell, there's an angle on each side. Anyone could confirm?
Thanks!

[Heuer]

The Lotus Elan lights are available new here: http://www.mickmillerlotus.com/parts-lighting.html They are exactly the same lights as the S2 but they incorporate the reversing lights, no cutting required.
Peter removed the stainless steel scallops which surround the Jaguar lights and also the s/s plate behind the number plate to give the car a cleaner look.

[elgrosso]

Thank you Heuer,

I contacted Mr Miller few weeks ago, nothing yet.
But if you confirm they're the same size I could start with mine and wait for an ebay/craigslist item.

So I removed the steel, and the side chrome finisher as well, looks already just a bit "lighter".
But this leaves an empty space between the body and the light assembly.
About an inch "outside" and 2 inches "behind" the body now (sorry for my poor english here).
Maybe on Peter's car it's an artefact from the picture angle but they look flush mounted.
I should have taken photo myself, here's what I found online to illustrate:

the angle on both sides, and we barely see the brackets:
http://www.monocoque-metalworks.com/mai ... C_0127.jpg

Here's the bracket that create space between the light support and the body:
http://jaguarxke.files.wordpress.com/20 ... g_5697.jpg

[Heuer]

Odd you have not heard back from Mick Miller. Try here: http://www.sjsportscars.co.uk/index.php?mod=10 L & R rear light assembly - £195 each. In the US try: http://www.rdent.com/ or http://www.davebean.com/

Pete will no doubt be along to explain how he did his modification to the rear.

[elgrosso]

Wow great links! Thank you very much Heuer, I was only able to find this one: http://www.parts.banks-europa.co.uk/orders_frame.htm

[PeterCrespin]

The rear light bodies were painted blue the same as the car, so even without the side chromes they didn't lok too bad and your eye was not drawn to the gap. I thought of filling the gap but from side it would have made the lights look as if they were sticking out from the body.

Just taking off the side chromes and stainless panel (which is deeper than the body behind it) makes it look better.

However, my current S2 is silver and those parts don't look half as bad as with other colours. I think Marek used Lotus lights on his S3, before me probably, although I bought a set via eBay long before I had an S2. He recommends using a panel of LEDS instead of a filament bulb for the reversing lights

Pete

[MarekH]

There is a picture of my tail lamps on David Lacey's website and Angus also featured them when I visited him about a year ago.

The LED inserts are the way to go as 104 LEDs provide substantially more light than the two tiny filament bulbs. If there is a demand, then I'll make up a batch for people.

I can pm people a picture of how it all looks if they are interested. Sadly, my home computer isn't up to the task of uploading pictures to any site which also has adverts as it automatically blocks access.

kind regards
Marek

[Gfhug]

Marek, might take you up on that LED idea as I have Elan rear lights. Do they only work for the reverse lights or for the other lights too? (Although have I read here that LEDs don't work for rear/brake lights?)

Geoff

[Heuer]

I tried both quartz-halogen and LED stop/side lights and found them unsatisfactory on the S1: viewtopic.php?t=4845 I also tried the same bulbs in my Lotus Elan S4 with similar results. There are two problems to overcome: a) the LED light frequency needs to be matched precisely to the red filter lens characteristics otherwise you reduce intensity markedly and b) the LED's are highly directional so the intensity fades as you move off axis, a problem with a low slung sports car being followed by a 4x4 or truck. Modern cars have the lights developed as a single unit - light source, reflector and lens - so tinkering with an older car is just guess work. There was a similar fad a few years ago with owners fitting HID headlight kits to older cars until they realised they actually reduced light output because the reflector was mis-matched.

Marek's idea about the white LED reversing lights is good though. No filter problem and you are looking through the rear view mirror at the same height as the light source so directionality is not a factor. You can buy custom LED boards for both the S1 and S2/S3 stop/tail lights from the US but they are horrendously expensive and I still remain sceptical about their efficiency. Maybe Marek can engineer a workable solution that addresses both problems?

Check out Angus's web site www.mossjaguar.com for pictures of his Elan light conversions e.g.:

[PeterCrespin]

" There are two problems to overcome: a) the LED light frequency needs to be matched precisely to the red filter lens characteristics otherwise you reduce intensity markedly and b) the LED's are highly directional so the intensity fades as you move off axis, a problem with a low slung sports car being followed by a 4x4 or truck."

" You can buy custom LED boards for both the S1 and S2/S3 stop/tail lights from the US but they are horrendously expensive and I still remain sceptical about their efficiency. "

I can confirm that the LED boards are extremely effective, standing out very clearly even in California sun when I followed Jerry Mouton's car. In fact when there was a small convoy of E-types together ahead of me, it was almost as if Jerry was the only one whose stoplights were working. Ditto indicators.

I think your work with LED cluster bulbs etc was very valid David. Indeed, it was pioneering perhaps, as is much of your work. But it does not remotely apply to the XKs-type light boards.

Their brightness from any angle is exemplary. True, they are a bit pricey compared to other bulbs, but cost nothing compared to exotic add-ons that people buy without a second thought. I'd rather fit those and enhance primary safety at no cost to original looks, than a set of MX5 seats that cost five times more and change the appearance to improve your chances only after you've been hit? People can decide affordability for themselves but anyone spending many tens of thousands for a car, let alone six figures as some here have, presumably does not need to worry about a hundred quid's worth of anti rear-end 'insurance' to protect their costly investment.

"Efficiency" is of course far higher for LEDs, depending what you meant by efficiency. Their light output is also far higher if you didn't mean electrical efficiency.

AFAIK there is no spectrum issue with white LEDs behind any colour lens, just as tungsten bulbs work with any colour lens.

Pete

[Heuer]

AFAIK there is no spectrum issue with white LEDs behind any colour lens, just as tungsten bulbs work with any colour lens.

The most common white light LED's are actually a mixture of Red (610 < λ < 760nm) , Green (500 < λ < 570nm) and Blue (450 < λ < 500nm) emissions from the same chip (sometimes referred to as RGB LED's):

"There are two primary ways of producing white light-emitting diodes (WLEDs), LEDs that generate high-intensity white light. One is to use individual LEDs that emit three primary colours?red, green, and blue?and then mix all the colours to form white light. The other is to use a phosphor material to convert monochromatic light from a blue or UV LED to broad-spectrum white light, much in the same way a fluorescent light bulb works.
There are three main methods of mixing colours to produce white light from an LED:

1. blue LED + green LED + red LED (color mixing; can be used as backlighting for displays)
2. near-UV or UV LED + RGB phosphor (an LED producing light with a wavelength shorter than blue's is used to excite an RGB phosphor)
3. blue LED + yellow phosphor (two complementary colours combine to form white light; more efficient than first two methods and more commonly used)
Because of metamerism, it is possible to have quite different spectra that appear white. However, the appearance of objects illuminated by that light may vary as the spectrum varies."

Optical filters selectively transmit light in a particular range of wavelengths, that is, colours, while blocking the remainder. This is why I found QH bulbs to be less effective than tungsten because the former emits white light nearer the blue end of the spectrum and the red lens filtered it. What I am trying to understand is whether the bespoke LED lights supplied in the US have been optimised to match the colour characteristics of the E-Type's lens. There are so many instances of people selling bolt-on goody products without bothering to do any research as to whether they are functioning correctly (intake trumpets and filters being a classic example!). So has anyone measured the E-Type lens to see if it efficiently passes red light in the 610 < λ < 760nm spectrum? Personally I would use simple red LED's in this application instead of mucking about with white light but I have yet to find the 'magic ingredient' that makes these clusters so apparently effective :?

My other concern is the direction of the LED light that these clusters produce. Everyone, including you, have extolled the virtues of the lights Jerry has installed but have been following him in E-Type's, all of which are at the same height. No reports of the view from an SUV or truck I notice!


This is how the after-market light suppliers to truck operators do the job. LED's in custom designed lens housings to maximise viewing angle and output like on modern cars (only six LED's note!):


And this is how Jaguar do it:

Does anyone really think they designed those lenses and then at the last moment thought "maybe we should stick some LED's in there - check eBay"?

Until I get a better understanding I am not prepared to invest ?200+ to test something that may offer no improvement, and may even be a disadvantage in a safety related product. C'mon Pete, more science please and less snake-oil.

[Gfhug]

Maybe the best/simplest option for the brake light would be a third, high level LED in the rear window, maybe ?30-40, then messing about with the rear lights themselves, but the reverse light could be a good option as the Elan ones don't seem that bright, certainly when compared with modern cars.

However if Marek wants to show us how to improve the rear lights, Elan or standard, then that is more credit to him. Over to you Marek?

[Heuer]

Someone has already fitted a third light above the rear number plate . viewtopic.php?t=1012&highlight=third+brake+light ?26.

As for reversing lights these would work: http://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/264-le ... white.html

[elgrosso]

The rear light bodies were painted blue the same as the car, so even without the side chromes they didn't lok too bad and your eye was not drawn to the gap. I thought of filling the gap but from side it would have made the lights look as if they were sticking out from the body.

Just taking off the side chromes and stainless panel (which is deeper than the body behind it) makes it look better.

However, my current S2 is silver and those parts don't look half as bad as with other colours. I think Marek used Lotus lights on his S3, before me probably, although I bought a set via eBay long before I had an S2. He recommends using a panel of LEDS instead of a filament bulb for the reversing lights

Pete

Thanks for the confirmation Peter.
I may quickly paint them black but I'll keep to that since LED + lotus cover will be too much for now.
Elan/Europa covers, Fed or not, LED or not, a bunch of options here.
Also, I noticed the bottom part of your "butt" looks smoother than mine, maybe due to the new paint?

And about the wires, does someone have a clever solution to plug/unplug the left side?
On right it's easily accessible, but on left I had to disassemble the socket it self.

[Heuer]

Rather than hijack this thread with talk of LED's I will continue it in the Upgrades Forum. However to round off the discussion DaveK has sent me some pictures which are very interesting and show the Classic Auto LED's do work off-axis. They use red LED's rather than white which seems to be the trick:





Unfortunately the indicators are also red so not legal in the EU. The red version of this bulb would be worth a try though at £20/pair: http://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/380-Su ... -Bulb.html

[PeterCrespin]

No snake oil David, just observed facts. I viewed Jerry's lights from all kinds of angles short of an SUV or truck vantage point, neither of which would be much different from a car until it was almost up the E's exhaust pipe . I am pretty sure they'd be brighter even then, given the horizontally-ribbed Fresnel reflector lens is optimised for vertical scatter. Can't say for certain though, because I was in a car not a Mack 18-wheeler :-) I seem to recall your own experiments with non-comparable bulbs were more to do with lateral than vertical visibility? Not sure.

Your spectrum point is valid, but doesn't account for overall light output. I.e. whatever attenuation/filtration of certain wavelengths occurs, the bottom line is the lights are effing bright, so there's far more light getting through, regardless.

So your two problems are overcome in practice and I'd rather have 75% of 2000 Lumens or whatever it is, than 95% of 1000. Photos don't do them justice but even the photos are clear. Just look at Dave's last photo and ask yourself if that is even remotely like a tungsten bulb? If you ever see a set in use you'll agree the visibility is hugely improved, I promise. Neither of us knows what testing was done so it's naughty IMO to imply the maker did little or none. The essence of the scientific method is observation and repeatable experiment. I've observed the S1 LED boards in action in brighter sunshine with the sun higher in the sky than it ever is in the UK. They far outperformed the tungsten bulb lamps of the same design the same day and route.

QED.

Pete

[Heuer]

All I was asking was some empirical proof or technical explanation as to why the Classic Auto LED's Co. units worked whereas the LED bulbs I tried failed to impress. The only response I seemed to able to elicit was (as you said) on the lines of "If you ever see a set in use you'll agree the visibility is hugely improved, I promise.", presumably not backed by a money back guarantee though!! DaveK answered my questions with a few simple photos which prove these things can work albeit at a very high price. We can now build on that knowledge and find our own more economical and easier to fit solution. In fact a Forum member has already placed an order for an alternative and we await his report with interest.

I would also be interested in finding out if the fitting of LED brake lights has any effect on the number of rear end shunts. My own observation suggests modern cars are just as prone to being rear ended no matter how bright their lights - people seem to be more interested in their texts, tweets and facebook than on the road ahead

CREE, the world's leading exponent of LED technology, is improving their products so quickly it makes your head spin. I bought a 'LED Lenser' the other day and it arrived as Version 7.2 - a version number on a torch because of the LED! Fantastic bit of kit though: http://www.torchdirect.co.uk/profession ... lumen.html