Disguising a modern battery inside an old-case

[ALAN COCHRANE]

David

A good idea except for two things:-
Even if Lincon supplied the case the internal ribbing would still need to be completely removed. Although they may provide a completely stripped out case as a new option. If they did a taller case would make life a lot simpler. I had to remove a lot of rubber from the lid. So much so that you could flex it in your hands. Fortunately this was not a problem here.
The lid of both Rory's and mine were cut about one inch below the top where there's a shoulder. This effectively hides the cut from the casual observer. I'm not sure what constitutes the lid and what constitutes the case before assembly. There's no obvious sign of a seam on the side of the case.

I kept my old batteries for both cars because at one point Lincon's African manufacturer could not maintain the supply of new cases. However Lincon told me that they could completely refurb a battery as long as they were sent the old case.
I'm also not sure they'd be overwhelmed at the thought of us using a disguised modern battery over their own product. But who knows, business is business after all.

Cheers

Alan

[Heuer]

The other option of course is to suggest they make a battery with modern AGM (Absorbent Glass Mat) technology. e.g.


http://antiqueautobattery.com/batteries ... /G22L.html

It mimics the FRV 117/A perfectly including script, logo, caps and circular lead buzz bars.

[64OTS]

Anyone out there know the external dimensions of an original size battery? Thanks

[64OTS]

OK found the dimensions on another topic here - 9 5/8" x 7 5/8" x 5 5/8"

[Steve1967]

Hi, Ive just been reading this thread and would like to do this conversion but..... I dont have an old Lincoln Battery I can use. Ive called a few of the local battery suppliers thinking they may have an old one kicking about but none of them have seen one in years.

Has anyone got an old one of these kicking about in the back of the garage they would be happy to part with for a small consideration?

If you have, please PM me, I would be delighted to hear from you!

Many thanks

Steve

[Steve1967]

I wonder if anyone has a scrap one of these old Lincoln batteries kicking about that they are never going to use that I could buy off you to do this mod?

I appreciate you couldn't mail it but I would be happy to collect if a reasonable distance from Tewkesbury in Gloucestershire.

Happy to buy it off you. Please get in touch.

Best regards and thanks

Steve

[mgcjag]

Hi Steve....post in the wanted section.....

[rfs1957]

Anyone who is concerned about how much grunt their "hidden" battery can deliver, and who might be looking for one like the Spark I used, read on.



The Spark turns out to have been identical to this Odyssey PC925 one, which I see is easily available in the UK for around £150 inc VAT,

https://www.tayna.co.uk/industrial-batt ... sey/pc925/

still double the price of the one referred to earlier in this string, but it produces 900A for starting purposes (this is an SAE J537 5-second measurement, I read) and has a capacity of 28Ah which has always proved sufficient for me during the seven years the last one lasted.

The manufacturer claims that these batteries hold their full charge for 2 years unattended, at 25°C, and for even longer at lower temperatures ; TPPL technology stands for Thin-Plate-Pure-Lead and is still fundamentally an AGM or Absorbed Glass Mat type, but with a higher-packing density - it does seem preposterously heavy, for its size, when you lift it, at 11.8 kg. The very high discharge currents available seem to be due to the proportionately larger surface of lead for a given volume of battery.

I wasn't particularly assiduous in the trickle-charge maintenance during much of those seven years, so I am sure it would have lasted longer if I had paid more attention to it ; it was being charged by the original dynamo through an RB340 control-box, too, when in use, and I'm hoping that a better-regulated alternator output will be kinder on that front too.

I was briefly tempted to look into Lithium, but I have the inside ear of a major player in battery distribution and retail over here, and their advice was clear.

Important to note that there is a mistake in the Odyssey technical specs for the PC925 at least, both in the printed and in the on-line dimensions quoted by retailers, as the height is not the 148mm as marked, which is too "fat" to fit inside a standard Jaguar-style battery case, but in fact only 124mm, which makes a big difference for applications like ours.

So read 169 mm x 179 mm x 124 mm.

[Heuer]

My Antique Auto battery finally gave up so I decided to dissect it to see if it could be rebuilt. Guess what I found inside?




Yep, the Odyssey PC925 as suggested by Rory.

Unfortunately the Odyssey is glued onto the base with bitumen an inch deep so my plans to install a new PC925 are on hold. Whilst I ponder a solution (no pun intended) to removing the bitumen I am going to go with a simpler option:

A Yuasa YBX3113 (DIN 56011) battery; £54: https://www.thebatteryshop.co.uk/yuasa- ... 8858-p.asp


Stickers removed and this kit applied; £20 from eBay seller Weskcar:


The alternative if you want the +ve post on the other side is a Halfords HB030; £80: https://www.halfords.com/motoring/batte ... 74064.html


Remove stickers and apply this kit; £20 from eBay seller Weskcar:



The black embossed Lucas battery was used up until the end of 3.8 production. The FRV 117A labelled battery with the red caps was used on the 4.2 cars and obviously for replacement of the earlier Lucas style. When searching for a replacement battery take the hold down bracket with you as sizes vary even though they are all supposed to be DIN 56011 spec size - 236 x 178 x 182mm (LWH).

The rubber cased, bitumen sealed batteries from Lincon, Shield and Fuller are a nightmare because they will invariably leak. This is because the Factory hold down bracket causes the battery walls to distort usually next to one of the terminals. It was a problem in period and Jaguar tried various fixes - Thackary washers and three iterations of rubber buffers. Not a problem with these modern plastic batteries and they are half the price!

[288gto]

Excellent David!

As regards the bitumen, all I can think of is heating up a wide metal scraper and pushing it into the bitumen where it meets the battery, repeat this until all the sides are free then hope it will break out by tapping the "Lucas" base off it.

[ysmalkie]

Here is a link to the auctions:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_ftrt ... s&_sacat=0

[Heuer]

Thanks Tadek. I think a link to his eBay shop maybe more long lasting once those auctions end: https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/weskcar?_trk ... 7675.l2563

[Heuer]

Whilst I am re-configuring the Antique Auto case I decided to put together a very passable period Lucas battery as cheaply as possible. This is what I ended up with for £80:

I wanted a battery that would:
a) fit
b) have traditional electrolyte fillers
c) a flat glossy top with no indentations or handles
d) positive post on the right side for a 3.8
e) capable of spinning the stock starter motor
f) easily available

Halfords sell this one for £62:


It is 35Ah, 330 CCA compared to the 60Ah 500 CCA of the original Lucas FRV 117A however you need to put these figures in perspective (see Notes). Size is 238x135x202mm (LxDxH) compared to the 258x173x225mm of the HB030 (DIN 56011) that is the correct spec.

As the HB038 is smaller than originally fitted batteries I had to modify (cut 'n weld) the hold down bracket. I also cut down the over long repro straps and increased the amount of thread. I used the black Lucas plate sticker on the front and the Lucas filler plugs pushed into the original holes (£20). The plugs required 1 mm ground off the diameter to push fit snugly and a brush of white paint to highlight the lettering. Result is quite pleasing:



Car starts instantly and the smaller size of the battery means you can wrangle it in and out of the car with ease.

Notes:

The Cold Cranking Performance (CCA) measures the starting performance of the battery at 0°C. The higher the CCA, the easier it will be to start the vehicle at zero degrees C. An E-Type starter motor needs about 250A to crank the engine. Fine in period but very few of us will be trying to start our classic cars at low temperatures given it means there will be salt on the road so a 330 CCA battery will be plenty powerful enough.

The Ampere Hours of the battery is the total amount of electricity stored in a battery and the amount of electricity that it will deliver during 20 hours before the voltage falls to 10.50V. For example, a 60Ah battery will deliver a current of 3A for 20 hours and a 35Ah will deliver 3A For 11.5 hours.

The Reserve Capacity is the amount of time, in minutes, a battery at 25°C can deliver a current of 25 Amps until the voltage drops to 10.50V. The 25 Amps represents a typical electrical load on a car under normal running conditions, so the Reserve Capacity gives an indication of the time that a vehicle with a normal electrical load will run with a broken alternator or fan-belt. Obviously, the more electrical accessories you turn off, the further you can drive the car. Reserve Capacity was originally used to give an indication of the capacity of the battery if the charging system failed and the duration of driving time left after charging warning light first appeared. For a 60Ah battery this will be about 25 minutes at 25A and 13 minutes for a 35Ah battery. However we know the E-Type ignition only draws 3A and an intermittent 7A by the cooling fan so these times would translate to 1.5 hours and 50 minutes respectively with everything else off.

[288gto]

Looks very smart David. All the advantages of a modern easily available battery but a smart period look. Well done.

[Heuer]

Decided to create a Lucas FRV 117/A out of the Halfords battery in my OTS. The Halfords HB030 is a DIN 56011 size battery and a good fit in the E-Type allowing the bracket and straps to fit without alteration. It is 68Ah and 550CCA and costs £80 with a three year no quibble warranty:


I was thinking of fitting a plain black plastic card on the top to disguise the carrying handles but I decided against it. All Halfords stickers came off easily. Lucas branded caps are stick on:



The handles are still usable. At some point I should get a pair of 'helmet' cables but at £80/set it is not high on my to do list!

[Herblay]

My Antique Auto battery finally gave up so I decided to dissect it to see if it could be rebuilt. Guess what I found inside?




Yep, the Odyssey PC925 as suggested by Rory.

Unfortunately the Odyssey is glued onto the base with bitumen an inch deep so my plans to install a new PC925 are on hold. Whilst I ponder a solution (no pun intended) to removing the bitumen I am going to go with a simpler option

Out of curiosity, David, did you find out how to unglue the Odissey from that bitumen? I’ve got the same battery, under its disguise, and sooner or later I will need to replace the Odissey with a new one

[Heuer]

No. I tried a blow torch but it just produced a lot of smoke and flame. Best way forward is to install the Odessey PC925 and clamp down the top half of the Antique Battery Co case own on top of it.

I have donated the battery case to Angus for his OBL along with some suggestions on how to deploy it. No doubt he will develop a good workable solution.