Beware..High Torque Starter

[mgcjag]

Hi All...this is a warning...for if youve fitted or are going to fit a replacement high torque starter ....I'm refering to 4.2 cars as I havent checked 3.8 or S3 cars but you all need to know...anyone who has searched high torque will have found all the comments of chewed up flywheels and if the original spigot spacer and ring dowles should be left in or removed.......I have a a very well known brand on the bench..its also re branded and sold as another well known brand...I'm not naming them as you need to check what ever brand you have...haveing taken measurements the starter pinion will only mesh 6mm with the flywheel..this is approx half of an original starter...it may well work but it's not good enough for me to install...iv raised this with the supplier and manufacturer who both confirmed my measurements....iv returned it.....so don't fit without mesureing......if you already have one fitted it's your call.. leave it or check......Iv just refurbed my original...Steve

[mtnjag]

Yes, that's what I found.
I have a gear reduction high torque starter. A 3.8 with a 4.2 trans/bellhousing/flywheel/clutch.
Works well now without the spigot plate.

The supplier said I was to use the plate.
I used the plate when initially fitted as I had with the previous standard Bosch starter and experienced what you are describing, too little contact.

I removed the plate and tried it and note contact of over 1/2 the ring gear, about what the old one was.
No damage is occurring to the ring gear and it's been 4 years and a lot of cranking.

Viewed through the inspection hole.

Picture with crayon/with spigot plate, has starter pinion impression mark on left side of ring gear.
Picture without crayon/without spigot plate, starter pinion mark over half way across ring gear.

[keithmac]

Thanks so much for those photos. i too had installed my hi torque starter with the spigot plate in , as there was no instructions to remove it . I called Moss and their tech dept. did not know what to do either. I had taken measurements prior to installation and after considerable head scratching and double checking, decided to remove the spigot plate.
Thanks for confirming that I made the right decision.
Cheers!

[mgcjag]

Most of these high torque units are being sold as "direct replacements"...in my book that's starter out....fit new starter..should be a simple diy job..But its not as simple as that....the spigot plate on a 4 2 is there for a reason....it provides an exact positioning for the starter motor useing the correct shouldered bolts through the ring dowls into threads in the starter...its also a closing plate for the bell houseing.....I have not found a high torque unit yet that fits correctly....So if you decide to fit one you will be making a compromise on starter position and limited pinion mesh with flywheel...get it wrong and you could chew up your flywheel..
Steve

[Paul bow]

Hi Steve.. I to fitted a high torque starter made by wasp, I think I got it from Rob Beere, the plate was definately removed and all would seem to be well, no damage on the ring gear, albeit I’m only 1000 miles in, looked to be quite well made on the face of it. Was yours the same make?

[mgcjag]

Hi Paul...no the units i refered to arnt Wosp but I'm fully aware of the wosp and it's dimensions...I was highlighting that high torque starters arnt direct replacement units and care and taking your own measurements is a must...the Wosp for a 4.2 is an LMS003...and as you say requires the spacer to be removed and the spigot dowls which on the original starter provide exact positioning of the starter....the Wosp is typically supplied with fixing studs pressed in to its mounting flange...the studs are smaller diameter than the holes in the bell houseing so a precision fit is not achieved although it may well be adequate.. you then fit nuts to the studs from the gearbox side ..where as the original starter uses shouldered bolts from the gearbox side into the starter.....Steve ps..a new Wosp LMS003 will however give 10-11mm mesh with the flywheel as per the original starter if the spigot plate is removed..
But note..not all Wosp LMS003 units are the same as Wosp changed the design...so measurement is advised

[Paul bow]

No end of great info on this site Steve!
I didn’t check just fitted it exactly how u mentioned above and clearly was lucky I had the earlier version.
Thing is Steve my engine and ancillaries were shot to bits, but if you can get the old unit rebuilt that’s got to be the winner, I mean unless you’ve got a fire breathing 400lb ft torque motor up front stick with what the car came with where possible.

[paydase]

My 3.8 FHC has had fitted by the previous owner such a hight torque starter from Powerlite (positive ground) sourced from SNGB before 2012.
Up to now there was nos starting issues but I confess that I did not check for any positioning issues except that the flywheel teeth look normal (picture here under also showing engine number on the flywheel):

P1080725.jpg (213.17 KiB) Viewed 10288 times

Could it be that there was an evolution in the design or that such a starter has no issue on 3.8 engines?

[mgcjag]

Hi Serge in my first post I specifically mentioned 4.2...I havent checked 3.8....3.8 use a different starter and the bellhouseing and flywheel are different and i dont think there is a spacer like in the 4.2 cars....but as per any modification measure and check is the best option..Steve

[tim wood]

Thanks Steve,
I’ve been through the threads on this which don’t seem too conclusive.
I’ve purchased the starter from Rob Beere, on ordering Rob said don’t use the spacer plate. The unit is made by powerlite and on the instructions it specifically mentions to use the spacer.
So total confusion.,

I spoke to Rob on Friday who says that he routinely fits without the plate but will check again on Monday to clarify/confirm.

I’ll update the post accordingly.
Tim