Early HT Conduit

[Heuer]

Sorry, a typo; should be C19889: http://www.sngbarratt.com/PartSearchRes ... tno=C19889

The paxolin spacers C4983 (thick x2) and C4984 (thin x3) and clip for the thick spacer C4982 were used up to engine number R3854. After that the sleeve was used. When they routed the cables over the front of the cylinder head a clip on the timing cover C19890 plus rubber grommet was used..

[ALAN COCHRANE]

Thanks David

My engine number is R3697 so it's the paxolin spacers and clip for me. I've been hunting around for the correct setup for ages without success, so it's really good to finally get the definitive answer.
Just one last question-where does the clamp bolt to and where should the other spacer be positioned. Sorry that's two questions.

Cheers

Alan

[Heuer]

Thick disc goes on first as a separator, thick disc is retained by the clamping ring bolted to the cam cover, so you can't see it. Best photo I have:


This one is courtesy of Tom Haddock from his 'Restoration and Authenticity Guide' but it is bit scruffy with repaired HT leads and the disc is not retained in the clamp:


Later cars (1963 -64) also had this organiser:

[ALAN COCHRANE]

David

That's excellent information. I've ordered them all from SNGB. I've also got the bow tie champion leads but i'll leave them for now as I rather like them.

Many Thanks

Alan

[Heuer]

Alan

Bear in mind there are five spacers in total - three thin and two thick. I will add a post to the Factory Fit thread detailing the various routings.

[Heuer]

As for the routing, thats a new one on me. Mine, 860897, ran over the top of the front of the cylinder head and dropped down through a plastic sleeve beside the breather and the top hose from memory. Actually I have rerouted the same as yours as its rather easier!

Thanks Andrew. You got me thinking and checking and I find the leads should run over the front of the cylinder head, through the oblong clip/grommet to the dizzy. So two hours, lots of missing skin and shedding some blood I managed to get things correct. Hateful job unless the engine is out because that oblong bracket/grommet is a pig to deal with!


I should also say that after many hours looking at period photos and discussing the topic with others I can find no evidence the E-Type left the Factory with a red conduit, unless it was red vulcanised fibre painted over with black. The XK140, XK150 and contemporary saloons did have the conduit in red though. So I think the one on Andrew's car is a service replacement and they had a red one on the shelf.

However it looks so good in red I intend to leave it as it is on my car. The JCNA concours deduction for 'wrong conduit' is 0.02 points for anyone interested in such things. It is the correct conduit, just not quite the correct shade of black

[Barry]

David, you mean to say that after we have now all bought red conduits, they were never used in 3.8 E-types?!!!! Cheers mate,
Barry

[ALAN COCHRANE]

David

Yes I've ordered all five spacers. Although for the life of me I can't see how there's enough room to fit the three thin spacers between the underside of the hoses and the top of the distributor. They must be situated very close together.
i agree about the conduit, it might not be the correct colour but it does look smart, especially compared to the scruffy one I had previously fitted.

Alan

[PeterCrespin]

David, you mean to say that after we have now all bought red conduits, they were never used in 3.8 E-types?!!!! Cheers mate,
Barry

Consider yourself lucky Barry, you're only stuck with one. The MV Xieng Shin has just berthed at Southampton with a container of the buggers, headed for Bridgnorth.

Either the YTS trainee* is going to spend June in the out-house with an MFI* facemask and a crate of Woolworths* satin black aerosols, or Barratts have now got a truckload of red multi-hole bedding-plant support stakes to dispose of. **

* Obsolete yoof training and hardware brands used for a full 'period' effect.
** This is a one-owner, original barn-find joke

[Heuer]

David, you mean to say that after we have now all bought red conduits, they were never used in 3.8 E-types?!!!! Cheers mate,
Barry

The early conduit initiative was started by Tadek and the rest of the XK community. I helped in finding who was making them and put people in touch. There was considerable debate about the colour but all the examples still extant (earliest was from 1953) were red vulcanised fibre, many over painted black by the Factory. Julian Barratt was reluctant to commit to manufacturing two versions so we reached a consensus that they should be red as original and owners could choose to leave them as is or over paint them black as Jaguar did (not a particularly effective solution as the paint fell off slightly quicker than the conduits fell apart!) As we have seen from Andrew's example, if you bought a service replacement it was red. According to Angus even the later conduit on the S2 was red vulcanised fibre painted black with the brackets set for studs 3 and 5.

A phenomenal amount of work went into getting these right - this was one of several drawings:


So the conduits are 'correct' in every detail but you will need to give them a quick flash over with satin black (no primer) before installing. This will leave the interior red, as original, and you can watch the paint slowly wear off over time to reveal the red, as original. If you are not 100% committed to originality (e.g. suspension parts are zinc plated rather than cadmium, bolts are not BEES etc etc) feel free to join the rebel alliance and leave the conduit in glorious red!

Yes I've ordered all five spacers. Although for the life of me I can't see how there's enough room to fit the three thin spacers between the underside of the hoses and the top of the distributor. They must be situated very close together. i agree about the conduit, it might not be the correct colour but it does look smart, especially compared to the scruffy one I had previously fitted.

This may help:

[neil4444]

I wonder if our old favourite 'Hotspot Matt Black BBQ paint' might be the thing to use if one is so inclined to paint it black. I rather like the red conduit on my Carmen Red car.

[Heuer]

It is not the temperature that causes the paint to fall off, it is the vulcanised fibre which does not accept paint at all well. It is impervious with high resistance to penetration by most organic solvents, oils, and petroleum derivatives. For the originality crowd you should remember that black vulcanised fibre is actually a dark grey colour hence, if you want it 'correct', black paint over red is the way to go. Here is a brand new repro C23608 (later) conduit to illustrate the point:

[1954Etype]

All the S2 cars we have had are red, painted black.

[Heuer]

Interesting! Thank you Angus, I will amend my thoughts and writings. I suppose this means the later black reproduction conduits need painting red before being painted black And any non painted conduits would be 'incorrect' for concours purposes.

Angus: are they red on the inside?

[ysmalkie]

Hello,

My name is Tadek, and I am not (yet) a frequent contributor to this forum, however I do read it often . I thought I would chime in on this thread :-).

Conduit work:
There were many people who contributed it the conduit work but Roger Payne, Rob Reilly and David were most important ones. The drawing posted by David was originally prepared by Rob, then modified by Roger and later by me. Interestingly we had 3 conduits and 3 sets of different dimensions for the conduit - they did not differ much but still, they did.
I also did several CAD drawings of the conduit later on for Julian and for my own reference.


Here is what I know about the conduit so far:
- Part no C.2451

- Same model was used on all XK cars and S1 e-types up to engine RA.5633, April ?64 . Of course the same conduits were also used on all XX engine equipped saloons.

- According to SB A.139 last cars fitted with the C.2451 were:
3.4l Mk2 at engine KJ.3944
3.8l Mk2 at engine LC.8906
3.4l ?S? at engine 7B.1046
3.8l ?S? at engine 7B.50537
Mk X at engine ZB.3965
e-type, engine RA.5633

- I can only assume it was used from the very first xk120, although fitted the opposite way for the early cars (with HT cables going under the manifold towards the front and then back).

- Later e-types used the following conduits:
C.23608: from RA.5634 to RA.7323, April-August ?64. (a combination of later conduit and early brackets)
C.24126: from RA.7323, August ?64 -- this is the only available conduit now.
Reason for the change was most probably the fitment of the engine lift hooks.

- The correct conduit C.2451 is fastened on 2nd and 5th head stud (counting from the firewall)

- The original conduit clips were 2 identical clips mounted at a distance of 11 13/16?. This parameter is most important, as this is the head stud spacing between the 2nd and 5th head stud. The clips were round shaped, contouring the conduit, allowing it to sit slightly higher, and being more elegant than the later straight angle clips. There is a sample conduit from ?51 XK engine where the clips were fastened with same semi-tubular rivets: same as the 9 semi-tubular rivets used to bind the conduit itself. These clips did not hold very well. At this point it?s difficult to say whether later clips used same semi-tubular rivets or blind rivets. It would be interesting to get feedback on these rivets from the e-type community.

- The conduit material used was most probably red or black Vulcanized Fibre. The red conduits were painted black, however the paint was of poor quality, hence some say they were originally orange/red.

- There is no chronological pattern for colours on the conduits and one cannot state that early units were red fibre painted black while later units were black fibre. There is evidence of original conduits on xk120 being red and black and xk140 again being black and red. It seems that whoever was supplying the conduits was using either colour depending on availability. It would have been logical to have all red conduits painted black, to keep the colour consistent. I do not have any data on the colour of C.2451 conduit mounted on e-types ? perhaps you could chime in. Please be careful when stating the conduit was originally red: the paint used on the conduits was of poor quality and remained only in few places on my 35k mile XK120 OTS. However when painted, conduits were painted assembled with clips and rivets.

- Fibre was fastened by 9 steel semi-tubular rivets.

- The material for the conduit is most probably Vulcanized Fibre, but could be also a pressboard.


SNG Conduit reproduction
I have a sample of the conduit thanks to Julian, and overall it looks very good:
1. Colour ? I would say it?s very close, and probably same as my conduit used to look like 60+ years ago.. 
2. Shape - same, or very close
3. Clips ? SNG chose a more elegant arrangement with the clips where the front clip is slightly different than the rear, contouring the conduit better. The clips are mounted with blind rivets, however SNG gets a big plus for using a washer on the inside of the conduit for a better fit. Current repro clips are thinly powdercoated or painted or painted otherwise. I suggested Julian to use electrophoretic paint, as it gives the thinnest layer of paint - important as the conduit is attached via the head studs. He said they will do so on the next batch.
4. I test fitted it to my e-type ?63 and fitment is OK. It's even better on xk120 head as there are no water plugs in the 'valley'.


Tadek


Virus-free. www.avast.com

[peters3103]

Hello chaps,

I'm going to order a conduit from SNGB too. I do have one that came with the car but it's never been fitted and I suspect it's probably an inferior item. It does look so much neater with the conduit in place.
Is it safe to undo the two head nuts to facilitate fitting?

PS Just completed the Jaguar Mountain Rally over the weekend with mediocre success but my E Type (885175) was voted best car at the rally so I'll take that!

Cheers Pete.

[PeterCrespin]

Interesting! Thank you Angus, I will amend my thoughts and writings......Angus: are they red on the inside?

Sounds like an extract from Senator McCarthy's Un-American Activities Committee! :-)

[Heuer]

Is it safe to undo the two head nuts to facilitate fitting?

Yes.

[andrewh]

As for the routing, thats a new one on me. Mine, 860897, ran over the top of the front of the cylinder head and dropped down through a plastic sleeve beside the breather and the top hose from memory. Actually I have rerouted the same as yours as its rather easier!

Thanks Andrew. You got me thinking and checking and I find the leads should run over the front of the cylinder head, through the oblong clip/grommet to the dizzy. So two hours, lots of missing skin and shedding some blood I managed to get things correct. Hateful job unless the engine is out because that oblong bracket/grommet is a pig to deal with!


I should also say that after many hours looking at period photos and discussing the topic with others I can find no evidence the E-Type left the Factory with a red conduit, unless it was red vulcanised fibre painted over with black. The XK140, XK150 and contemporary saloons did have the conduit in red though. So I think the one on Andrew's car is a service replacement and they had a red one on the shelf.

However it looks so good in red I intend to leave it as it is on my car. The JCNA concours deduction for 'wrong conduit' is 0.02 points for anyone interested in such things. It is the correct conduit, just not quite the correct shade of black

Ah sorry about that David. I have only just seen this reply, I don't seem to be getting notifications as I used to. I need to check my set up. Anyway, I suppose I had better do the same as you, I keep looking at the oblong bracket on the shelf thinking I really ought to put it back! Reference the idea mine was a service replacement, I cannot think why that would be the case, as you may recall my car has not been apart, before I got hold of it anyway. I will have another look, but I think there may have been some black on it. Will check.

[andrewh]

Andrew - it would be good to get a side by side photo of your original and the new one when you get it. Judging colour in photos is very difficult. By the way can I use a couple of your blog photos for the Factory fit conduits thread?

yes of course. Sorry again no notification of your reply to this thread on my e mail.